Fact or Fiction?

[carpenoctem1689]

The germans were very interested in italian aircraft especially in 1943, because the italians produced very capable, competitive aircraft, that still had more potential. The germans looked at designs and turned them down, only because the time needed to build each one. They were clearly superior to 109s, and could still be evolved into more effective machines in time, while the 109 had reached the limit for the most part. Italian series five fighters were fast, manouverable, well armed and were more importantly, the equal or superior of anything they faced. I dont know about anyone else, but i would much rather pilot a Mc.205 in a dogfight, rather than the contemporary to the time spitfire mark.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There was just one G. 56s produced, and it was only a prototype. It didn't fly until March, 1944 which makes it a contemporary of the Spitfire XIV and +25lbs boost cleared Spitfire L.F. IX, both of which handily outperform it.

The G. 55 was equipped with a DB-605A engine. Maximum hp at sea level was 1,475 hp. Maximum output at rated altitude was 1,355hp at 5,700m (18,500 feet).

A Spitfire with a Merlin 66 produced more than 1500 hp at the same height, and maximum horsepower at 20-21,000 feet. It also has a slightly lighter airframe and lower loaded weight. More power + less drag should equal better performance than its opponent.

Most of the problem here is while I have very good figures for Spitfire IX performance, I have very little data for the G. 55. All I have to go on are the basic engine outputs, weights, maximum climb rates and maximum speed figures. All of these seem to give the advantage to the Spitfire.

I don't have any figures for roll, pitch or turn performance save that the G.55 could "turn inside a Spitfire". But that doesn't tell me at what speeds, altitudes and control forces it was done. The Hurricane could turn inside a Spitfire at low speed, but couldn't follow a Spitfire in high speed turns. Maybe the same is true here. Did the G. 55 outturn the Spitfire at all speed ranges or only at low or at high speed? How well did it roll at low and high speed. What were the dive speed limitations? What were the stall speeds. Did the G.55 have gentle or violent stall behaviour? Did the plane give stall warnings?

Ideally we need to see a manual or performance monogram to make a fair comparison. Otherwise we are just relegated to guess-work.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The MC.205 was faster than the G.55 and the RE.2005 at altitudes below 26,000 feet, but above that it lost manouevarbility and speed quickly. It carried the lightest armament of the three, with only two fifty cal, and two 20mms, but keep in mind the MC.205 was only intended as an interim aircarft. The MC.205N-1 would have been the definitive aircraft had castoldi had the time, with a larger wing, and a nose mounted 20mm, and four wing mounted fifty cal guns. It was to be named the Orione. It would have been better than the Veltro, but required considerable retooling to produce, and was abandoned due to the war situation.

 

[Sal Monella]

Flight test between Spitfire Mk IX and Me-109G.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hmm interesting link there.

 

[Gnomey]

Hmm interesting link there.

Yes. Good link Sal Monella

 

[Parmigiano]

Here is an interesting link about the Macchi 205, scroll down for the technical drawings.
http://www.museoscienza.org/english/aereo/mc205.html

Note trhat the left wing was 20cm (8") longer than the right, to partially compensate the propeller torque

btw, is there any documentation/report related to the comparative test run by the Luftwaffe? All I could read was Uk or USA sources, but many Allied planes were captured by the LW and I suppose they run extensive tests: would be interesting to cross-compare the outcoming.

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting link Parmigiano!

 

[cheddar cheese]

I never knew the wing lengths were different...interesting!

 

[Parmigiano]

Here are the quoted drawings, the 3rd shows the different size of wings and ailerons

http://digilander.libero.it/enniotarantola/TarantolavelC205Disegni.htm

 

[cheddar cheese]

Great site! 8)

 

[Sal Monella]

The Germans were reknown for their record keeping so I would have to say yes, there are records of the tests ... somewhere.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Ive been looking forever and a day but I havent found anything yet.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Germans were reknown for their record keeping so I would have to say yes, there are records of the tests ... somewhere.

The problem is getting to them. More than likely the test records were taken by the allies and if a few still exist in Germany they are either in private hands or in the Bundes Archive and pretty much unatable.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It seems that lots of German records were destroyed in the Allied bombings of German cities and the Soviet ground advance through Eastern Germnay.

I think it was Max Hastings that calculated that only between 7-12% of German documents had survived the war. However, the collapse of the Iron Curtain has been a real boon to Western historians as there are tens of thousands of documents in russian archieves that are still waiting to be examined and translated (either from German or Russian).

More likely would be to find the Italian flight tests of their planes.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That might be easier.

 

[Parmigiano]

Italians had a few Allied aircraft captured, but I am not aware of comparison test with local machines.
I remember there was a captured P38, that was used operationally by Italian air force until the tanks corroded because of the German synthetic gasoline, but I suspect the magazine was left at my ex, so it will be very difficult it has survived the big clean up.
When I'm back home I'll try to contact an old time friend who is very documented about Regia Aeronautica.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Italians had a few Allied aircraft captured, but I am not aware of comparison test with local machines.
I remember there was a captured P38, that was used operationally by Italian air force until the tanks corroded because of the German synthetic gasoline, but I suspect the magazine was left at my ex, so it will be very difficult it has survived the big clean up.
When I'm back home I'll try to contact an old time friend who is very documented about Regia Aeronautica.

There was also the guy in the captured P-38 who was shooting down allied bombers.

"One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down.

Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down. The American commanders were under the assumption that these missing bombers just did not make it back just as many before them. Nobody thought a friendly aircraft was the cause.

After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral."

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting post FBJ!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were also several captured B-17's that were flown by KG200 including the aircraft Wulfe Hound that were sited by allied bomber formations. The USAAF was really worried that they would use the planes to infiltrate there bomber formations and then attack the formations with guns and rockets.