Fact or Fiction?

[Parmigiano]

Yup Flyboy,

this story was mentioned in that item, but if I well remember was for a big percentage dismissed as fantasy, and the reality was a more 'boring' report of a captured aircraft, briefly used in operations and finally grounded for maintenence issues.

I read it several years ago, and the only thing that I clearly remember is that the operations of the P38 were stopped when the fuel tanks were not safe anymore, I don't trust my memory for ther details.

 

[SM79Sparviero]

After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral."
_________________

A heroic exciting tale , I would like it were true bit it is unfortunately a legend.
A legend is not necessarily a lie.

Colonel Tondi, one of the best italian pilots really attacked some B24s with a captured P38 with white cross on the tail and fascio on the wings-it was not a treachery attack- One bomber was shot down.The corrosive effect of the bad italian fuel irreparably damaged tanks and pipes so the fighter could not be used for further actions.I myself think that fuel was not so bad , italian technicians in reality had troubles with the lubrification of the turbochargers that were nearly unknown in Italy in 1943. Italian fighters never faced an YB-40, it was better for USAF airmen.The idea of a "flying escort cruiser" had never been successful, YB-40 had serious troubles in keeping the same ceiling and speed as conventional B-17 bombers for the extra-weight of machine guns and ammunitions.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hmm interesting. Good info.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

what i don't get is why the hell did they make the YB-40 carry a full payload?? no wonder it didn't work with that weight- whenever they added weight to a lanc they took that weight away from the payload it makes sence to do it that way.........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were actually 2 P-38s that were known to land into Luftwaffe/Italian hands. One of them is the one that you mentioned above that was flwon by Italian Col Tondi. The other was a Lightning F-5E serial number 44-23725 and was flown by 2nd Lt. Martin J. Monti in Pomigliano with the 354th Air Service Squadron. 2nd Lt. Monti used the aircraft to defect to the Germans on 13 Oct. 1944. He was the only USAAF fighter pilot to defect) He landed the plane and Milan-Lonate Airfield at 1500 hours. 12 days later it was repainted in Luftwaffe markings and handed over to the Germans and was given the ID of T9+MK and used by 2./Versuchsverband Ob.d.L (Zirkus Rosarius).

Later in May 1945 the aircraft was recaptured by the Allies at Schongau, Germany. Monti was also captured by the Americans in May 1945 in Milan, Italy and was court-martialled and served prison time.

I got this info from a book on KG200 that I am reading. I will try and start a thread on the allied aircraft flown by them on Monday.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just thinking of what would of been potential adversaries for the '5 serise' Italian fighter;

A working list for June-August would be;

Supermarine Spitfire Vb
Supermarine Spitfire Vc
Supermarine Spitfire L.F. Vb/c (clipped wings, cropped impeller, Merlin 45m, 50m, 55m)
Supermarine Spitfire F. IX Merlin 61
Supermaine Spitfire L.F IX Merlin 63A/66 (Some with clipped wing tips)
Supermarine Spitfire VIII Merlin 66
Supermarine Seafire I/III
Hawker Hurricane Mk IIc
Hawker Hurricane Mk IId/IV

Curtiss P-40F/L (Packard Merlin engines, Commonwealth designation Kittyhawk II)
Curtis P-40P-40K/M (Allison engines, K was a low alt version, M was medium-high alt, Commonwealth designation Kittyhawk III)
Curtis P-40N (Lightened structure, less fuel, reduced armour, better performance)
Grumman Wildcat F4F-3, F4F-4, FM-1, FM-2
Lockheed P-38G/H
Republic P-47C
North American P-51A Mustang/ A-36A Apache


Anybody think of any others?


At low altitudes the Spitfire L.F. V and the FM-1/2 would be the real worries. Both at very nimble. FM-1s and 2s had a great kill ratio against the Japanese single seaters.

Still, the Mediterranean was all about medium altitudes; say 14-20,000 feet.

Contenders here are the Spitfire IX and VIII, the P-38 and the P-51.

The P-51A was supposedly the most nimble of all the Mustangs, better than a Spitfire V in some respects. It reportedly was also the most pilot friendly of the line. The Allison gives it reasonable power at 15,000 feet. Armament is a bit of a mixed bag; 4 Hispanos in the MK 1A, 4 .50s and 4 .303s in the Mk.1, just 4 .50s in the P-51A but six in the A-36.

The P-38s have good speed, good firepower, great climb and reacted will to the dryer, warmer weather of the Mediterranan. Problems with compressability dont really show up below 20,000 feet and their superior dive means that they can just run away if they get into too much trouble .

Spit IX/VIII had really similar performance to the Italian birds. Too close to call here really. I give it to the Spitfires, but only because I love Brit stuff.

 

[wmaxt]

what i don't get is why the hell did they make the YB-40 carry a full payload?? no wonder it didn't work with that weight- whenever they added weight to a lanc they took that weight away from the payload it makes sence to do it that way.........

They carried no bombs just ammo and guns. They were fine going in but once the others bropped their bombs and the YB-40s still had nearly gross weight was when the problem showed up. The YBs were a last ditch attempt at self escorting bombers.

Remember self escorting bombers were pitched as far back as 1930 and ALL high ranking AAF people staked their reputations on it, until the US Congress started asking why there were no fighter escorts in '43 did they bow to the obvious and inviteable. it's also why the appearence of the P-51B with long range capability was the saviour, had the P-38s real record been shown they would have been before Congress explaining why a second source had never been started for it. Then they would have been fired, at the very least.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good post there Jabberwocky. I think that would be the main contenders for the 5 series.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Yep. Id give to the Italian's though, although there is no test data at the moment instinct tells me they would be far more manoeverable than the Spits.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ofcourse you would say that. You think you are Italian!

 

[cheddar cheese]

We may be going on holiday to Italy on my study leave next year if I get my way. Now, which part do I choose...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Go to Tuscany. Beautiful area and the wine is wonderful!

 

[cheddar cheese]

Nah, I was thinking perhaps Modena or Milan

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Have you been to Tuscanny? If not go there!

 

[Gnomey]

Has he been to Italy...?

 

[cheddar cheese]

For about 5 or 10 mins.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

LOL. Me and my wife go to Italy regularly. Last time though was before I went to Iraq back in Dec 2003. We went to Rome for a week and then went to Pisa and Florence. We usually go about every year though. Not this year though. We have allready done to many trips by going to Washington DC and South Carolina for a couple of weeks and then to the Dominican Republic for 9 days. We will be going to Zurich, Switzerland this December though.

 

[Gnomey]

Thought so....

 

[Parmigiano]

Found this quick reference in a long and interesting inteview to Italian ace Luigi Gorrini, talking about his war from 1940 to 1945.

It seems there was another pilot who was riding a captured P38

D. Quindi a difendere Roma non c'erano che una sessantina di aerei?
R. Sì, c'eravamo solo noi con in più qualche aereo della notturna a Centocelle, ma poca roba. C'era Rotondi che volava con un Lighting che era stato catturato agli Americani e momenti lo buttavo giù io, sta testa di cavolo...

[about defense of Rome, 1943]
Q. So in defense of Rome there was only about sixty airplanes?
A. Yes, there was only us [III Stormo, with Macchi 202 and some Bf109]plus some nightfighter in Centocelle, but very few. There was Rotondi who was flying with a captured Lightning, and I nearly shot him down, that asshole of a guy... [note: 'testa di cavolo' can be translated with 'asshole', but is to be intented in a friendly and sympathetic view]

Full interview is here, for those who understand Italian (maybe if somebody is interested I could translate it in a lonely dark night..)
http://www.italia-rsi.org/farsianr/gorrini.htm#gorrininterv

PS: CC, if you will finally decide for Milano let me know and I'll PM you my cell phone: maybe if schedules will fit we can have a drink (..soda for you!)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting interview there...cool.