Favorite US Naval (carrier) bird

jeff gutierrez said:

the corsair had it in spades speed. fire power. agility. strength. and some of the greatest pilots ever but the hellcat has to be considered hand in hand with the the bent wing bird. how do you argue the fact that the f6f created more aces than any other fighter in the us each plane had its reasons for being on this list and all served our country well guess iam late to the party but just found this forum

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is it possible that the Hellcat created the most aces due to the fact that they were shooting down clay pigeons IMHO

In comparing F4U and F6F, it looks cut and dried, according to raw statistics, but perhaps not.

The F6F flew in WW2 66530 action sorties and was credited with 5257 kills and lost to E/A 270 Hellcats.
The F4U flew in WW2 64051 action sorties and was credited with 2155 kills and lost to E/A 189 Corsairs. Looks like clear advantage to Hellcat.
But hold the phone!
F6F was credited with 1445 bombers and 3718 fighters.
F4U was credited with 478 bombers and 1562 fighters.
So it appears that Corsair were more likely to encounter fighters than bombers.
What the heck was the Corsair doing all during the war?
Well for one thing the Corsair dropped 15621 tons of bombs while the Hellcat dropped 6503 tons.
Corsair first saw combat in February, 1943 while Hellcats saw combat first in August, 1943.
It is well known that the quality of IJN pilots declined sharply during and after the Guadalcanal Campaign so it is probable that the Corsair pilots faced at least for a time more formidable opposition than Hellcat pilots did.

renrich said:

It is well known that the quality of IJN pilots declined sharply during and after the Guadalcanal Campaign so it is probable that the Corsair pilots faced at least for a time more formidable opposition than Hellcat pilots did.

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That is just the case that Blackburn made in Jolly Rogers. he felt that his USN Corsairs of VF-17 and Boynton's VMF-214 were the flyers that really broke the back of IJN fighter aviation. Although, it is also true that Lt. Col. Joe Bauer told his pilots on or about Oct 17, 1942, "when you see Zeroes, dog fight 'em!" so the marines wildcats must have been contributing significantly to some of the general attriting of IJN fighter pilot quality.

I suspect Rich Leonard will rightly include his dad's landbased VF-11 Sundowners (wildcats) in this gallery.

Interestingly, the USN flew only 1269 action sorties from landbases in Corsairs but they were credited with 19 bombers and 141 fighters during those sorties. I expect that most of those sorties were during the Guadalcanal Campaign.
The Marines flew 52852 action sorties from landbases in Corsairs and were credited with 300 bombers and 1100 fighters.

From looking at these statistics ( from Naval Aviation Combat Statistics, WW2) I am concluding that the Corsair was a much more lethal ACM AC than the Hellcat.

OK, just reviewing the stats from Naval Aviation Combat Statistics and here is one that will blow your hat in the creek.
Remember that Navy Corsairs flew 1269 land based action sorties and were credited with 19 bombers and 141 fighters. They lost 14 Corsairs to E/A. Pretty good ratio.

But, Marine F4Fs and these would mostly be the dog, F4F4, that our friends the Brits insisted on loading up with two extra guns flew only 1074 landbased action sorties. They were credited with 175 bombers and 281 fighters. So, based on that the F4F was more lethal than the F4U. However the Marines lost 75 F4Fs to E/A.

Don't know why I never noticed this before.

renrich said:

OK, just reviewing the stats from Naval Aviation Combat Statistics and here is one that will blow your hat in the creek.
Remember that Navy Corsairs flew 1269 land based action sorties and were credited with 19 bombers and 141 fighters. They lost 14 Corsairs to E/A. Pretty good ratio.

But, Marine F4Fs and these would mostly be the dog, F4F4, that our friends the Brits insisted on loading up with two extra guns flew only 1074 landbased action sorties. They were credited with 175 bombers and 281 fighters. So, based on that the F4F was more lethal than the F4U. However the Marines lost 75 F4Fs to E/A.

Don't know why I never noticed this before.

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I am not sure anyone has noticed this! This is something of a puzzle and I have to wonder if it is a combination of pilot training programs producing better pilots during a period when there were more enemy aircraft around to engage? I am thinking specifically of the defensive portion of the Guadacanal campaign which, in its later stages was producing a fair number of aces and with RADAR dirrected intercepts, allowed the F4F time to climb to favorable intercept geometry. Once perched on high, I can't help but think almost any USN aircraft would be essentially equally lethal with only marginal performance related differences.

These differences might become more noticable when USN air forces were engaged in offensive operations with USN aircraft defining the rules and circumstances of the engagements. In other words challenging the enemy essentially on equal terms. The latter being something the F4F might be less successful in accomplishing. Just thinking about your surprising post and wondering what it might mean....

Upon reflection, Number one- This shows how almost any premise can be "proved" by statistics. Number two- My guess is that the Marine F4Fs in the landbased action sorties were operating in a target rich environment ( and some of the time they were the target!) Those 1074 sorties had to be primarily the Guadalcanal campaign with a sprinkling of the Midway action. The F2A had 25 action sorties landbased with the Marines and had 14 losses by E/A. They were credited with 6 bombers and 4 fighters downed. Which sounds very suspect to me if that was all the Midway action.

Anyway the F4F, even taking the credits with a sack of salt, during it's landbased Marine action sorties, at the very least held it's own against probably Zekes. It would be instructive to try to compare those landbased action sorties and the results with all the other Allied fighters and their encounters with Zekes during that time period. Methinks the lowly, corpulent, Wildcat, even in the F4F4 version is very underrated. Either that or the Marine and USN pilots were superior practitioners of their craft.

renrich said:

Upon reflection, Number one- This shows how almost any premise can be "proved" by statistics.

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Amen! Figures lie and liars figure!

renrich said:

Number two- My guess is that the Marine F4Fs in the landbased action sorties were operating in a target rich environment ( and some of the time they were the target!)

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For sure!

renrich said:

Anyway the F4F, even taking the credits with a sack of salt, during it's landbased Marine action sorties, at the very least held it's own against probably Zekes. It would be instructive to try to compare those landbased action sorties and the results with all the other Allied fighters and their encounters with Zekes during that time period. Methinks the lowly, corpulent, Wildcat, even in the F4F4 version is very underrated. Either that or the Marine and USN pilots were superior practitioners of their craft.

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I suspect it was a combination of those two factors. The growing skill of USN/USMC pilots and the robust and agile F4F which I have heard enjoyed considerable respect on the part of the IJN pilots who fought it. I also think the RADAR warning contributed greatly by providing them with advantageous geometry to meet the enemy on terms favorable to the F4F.