Fighter or bomber depending on USAAF pilot size

eWildcat · Aug 8, 2012

Hello everyone.

I've been a member of that forum for quite a long time, reading it very frequently, but it's the first time I write a post.

I have a question I hope some of you may answer, regarding this article about Bob Hoover that a member of another forum brought to us:

Airport Journals

On his first orientation flight in a Stearman PT-17, his instructor did a roll, and then asked him to try one. After Hoover completed a perfect roll, and then followed up with four-, eight- and 16-point rolls, as well as other advanced maneuvers, the instructor informed his commanding officer of the new pilot's talent. Hoover was soon showing other instructors what he could do in the airplane, and the CO asked the 20-year-old to put on a 30-minute demonstration for the other cadets on graduation day.

Hoover thought he was finally on the way to being a qualified fighter pilot. But, he was sent to basic training at Greenville, Miss., and then to Columbus, Miss., for advanced twin-engine training. That meant he would eventually fly transports or bombers.

"I wanted to be a fighter pilot in the worst way," he said.

Shorter pilots were likely to go to fighter training and taller ones to bombers and transports. At six feet, two inches, Hoover definitely had a problem, as did a short friend, who wanted to go to transports but had been given a fighter assignment. The two developed a plan and visited a sergeant in the personnel office.

So we wonder if what is described in the article, i.e. you were more likely to be chosen for fighters if you were shorter, is something you were aware of at the time in the USAAF and, if it is true, would someone know what the reasons for it were?

tyrodtom · Aug 8, 2012

Only so much adjustabilty can be built into a fighter cockpit. You can adjust the pedals back and forth on most, some the seat can be adjusted up and down.
Just like a car, but usually more adjustments possible. But there are limits, and most bombers would have more excess room.

I remember in Army WOFT there were a one guy that had to stand a little extra tall, because he didn't actually meet the minimum height requirments, and several that had to slouch, because they were over the maximum. But i'm not positive what either limit was, I think it was 5'4" to 6' 2".

From the pilots i've know, a few left over WW2 veterans, and pilots I was around in the 60's and 70's, most were not tall.

davebender · Aug 8, 2012

The P-47 was our most numerous WWII era fighter aircraft. From what I understand it had a relatively roomy cockpit.

stona · Aug 8, 2012

davebender said:
The P-47 was our most numerous WWII era fighter aircraft. From what I understand it had a relatively roomy cockpit.

Yep.Evasive action in a P-47 meant running around the cockpit .

Many Luftwaffe fighters had very little adjustment for the seat and none for rudder pedals.They were also very cramped and must have been a squeeze for some of the bigger pilots. There were some fairly tall men flying them,Germans generally are not small.

Cheers

Steve

davebender · Aug 8, 2012

Me-109 had an adjustable seat and I suspect the Fw-190 did also. However these aircraft (especially Me-109) had a narrow cockpit with little headroom.

A modern day pilot on the History Channel suggested a P-47 cockpit was as roomy as the F-15 and more roomy then the F-22.

stona · Aug 8, 2012

davebender said:
Me-109 had an adjustable seat and I suspect the Fw-190 did also.

Both those German fighters had adjustable seats. Judging by the position of the adjustment lever on the Fw 190 I doubt it could be adjusted in flight. I remember reading somewhere that the seat on the 109 could only be adjusted on the ground too.

Cheers

Steve

renrich · Aug 8, 2012

The P39 was designed for a 5' 8" pilot.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 8, 2012

When the government request design proposals from manufacturers for a military aircraft there are usually volumes of support documents that specify such things as hardware and material requirements, requirements for exterior lighting, performance requirements for radios, etc., etc., etc. I would bet dollars to donuts that way back in the late 30s, early 40s there were requirements for fighter aircraft cockpit seats and minimum or maximum size they were allowed to be built to. Based on that specification is where I believe the height requirements came about for pilots.

Just for some Trivia - American Vernon Keogh who flew for the RAF during the BoB was the smalest fighter pilot in the RAF until his death in 1941. He was 4'10"

tyrodtom · Aug 8, 2012

FLYBOYJ said:
When the government request design proposals from manufacturers for a military aircraft there are usually volumes of support documents that specify such things as hardware and material requirements, requirements for exterior lighting, performance requirements for radios, etc., etc., etc. I would bet dollars to donuts that way back in the late 30s, early 40s there were requirements for fighter aircraft cockpit seats and minimum or maximum size they were allowed to be built to. Based on that specification is where I believe the height requirements came about for pilots.

Just for some Trivia - American Vernon Keogh who flew for the RAF during the BoB was the smalest fighter pilot in the RAF until his death in 1941. He was 4'10"

I understand he sat on extra cushions under his parachute seatpack to be high enough in the cockpit. But I wonder how he reached the rudder pedals ?

bobbysocks · Aug 8, 2012

a very enterprising mechanic probably fashioned him pedal extensions of some sort... ???

i do recall hearing that a lot of the cadets that washed out of fighter training went to bomber groups...some to fly and some as gunners.

renrich · Aug 8, 2012

The pilots who flew the Corsair had an interesting situation. The cockpit was tailored for the chief test pilot who was 6' 4''.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 8, 2012

stona said:
There were some fairly tall men flying them,Germans generally are not small.

Actually I think you will find quite the opposite, at least during that time frame.

The majority of my original uniforms look like they would fit a scrawny teenager...

davparlr · Aug 8, 2012

We had a Marine in my pilot training class who was rather large. His helmet stuck up above the canopy breaker mounted on top of the ejection seat in the T-38. I suspect he was very hopeful the canopy would eject normally or his head was going to lead the ejection seat through the canopy, if he had to eject. probably would not be so bad for a Marine!

R Pope · Aug 8, 2012

Robert Johnson and Dick Bong were both little guys. Johnson used extra cushions in his Jug, but I think the seat adjusted enough for Bong in the Lightning.

R Pope · Aug 8, 2012

On the other end of the scale, Red Fiebelkorn was the biggest fighter pilot in the ETO. He shot Nowotny down. Sadly, he was the first US flyer to lose his life in Korea.

tyrodtom · Aug 8, 2012

I've always understood those early ejection seats compressed your spinal disc, and you'll be shorter by a inch or so for a few days afterwards. Is that true?

I was stationed at Lowry AFB in 1965-66, they had a ejection seat trainer that they brought the USAF academy cadets up to give them some training. It was outside, about, 75-100 foot tall, at a slight slant.
It shot them up, decellerated at the top, and slowly come back down. I watched about 25 take the ride, about 1/3rd needed helped getting out and walking, and not one looked unaffected by the ride.

bobbysocks · Aug 8, 2012

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Actually I think you will find quite the opposite, at least during that time frame.

The majority of my original uniforms look like they would fit a scrawny teenager...

probably because most of them were just that or slightly older...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 8, 2012

bobbysocks said:
probably because most of them were just that or slightly older...

Could be, some of them are later war model uniforms. Some of them are early too.

I think however that overall, people were smaller back then.

davparlr · Aug 8, 2012

tyrodtom said:
I've always understood those early ejection seats compressed your spinal disc, and you'll be shorter by a inch or so for a few days afterwards. Is that true?

I was stationed at Lowry AFB in 1965-66, they had a ejection seat trainer that they brought the USAF academy cadets up to give them some training. It was outside, about, 75-100 foot tall, at a slight slant.
It shot them up, decellerated at the top, and slowly come back down. I watched about 25 take the ride, about 1/3rd needed helped getting out and walking, and not one looked unaffected by the ride.

Been there, done that. There certainly is a risk to ejections, airspeed, g loads, and clearances. The last is certainly an issue. Some cockpits are very tight and require airmen to get into the proper position for successful ejection without losing appendages. Something that could be problematic in a damaged gyrating aircraft. Sometimes this is automatic. I sat in the cockpit of an F8U mockup and I was amazed at how cramped it was. You really had to get tucked in to eject.

Pictures of old man climbing around an airplane!

eWildcat · Aug 10, 2012

Thanks for your posts.

We didn't really get the answer, but interesting stories are always good to take!

Someone suggested to me that taller pilots may have been chosen for bombers because you needed strength to fly them at the time, as their controls were pretty heavy. What do you think of this possible explanation?

Fighter or bomber depending on USAAF pilot size

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