Force Z with HMS Ark Royal waits for HMS Indomitable

[Admiral Beez]

On 25 October 1941, HMS Prince of Wales and the escorting destroyers HMS Electra, Express, and HMS Hesperus sailed from Greenock, destined for Singapore. On the way they collect HMS Repulse. HMS Indomitable is ordered to deploy to Malaya by end of December or early Jan 1942 after her work-up. Let's have Churchill agree to also send HMS Ark Royal with Force Z, with Phillips collecting the carrier at Gibraltar. Along the way, the Admiralty makes a change of plan, instructing Force Z to stop at Ceylon to await HMS Indomitable. Thus, on December 7/8, 1941 Force Z and Ark Royal are at Ceylon with HMS Indomitable enroute. What orders should the Admiralty give Phillips? Should Phillips be replaced by Sommerville or someone more apt?

One unexpected benefit of sailing away with Force Z in late October 1941 is that Ark Royal isn't sunk 14 November 1941, and of course neither are Prince of Wales and Repulse sunk on 10 December 1941. As for the Atlantic and Med, both HMS Illustrious and Formidable re-enter service in early 1942. Until then the Atlantic and MTO will be covered by HMS Victorious, Eagle, Furious and Argus. I'd like to think that HMS Hermes will be sent home to add her limited air cover to the MTO.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hindsight says put Somerville in charge. Who had seniority?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hindsight says put Somerville in charge. Who had seniority?

Good question. Per Wikipedia....

Sommerville
Promoted to captain on 31 December 1921
Promoted to rear admiral on 12 October 1933
Promoted to vice admiral on 11 September 1937
Promoted to full admiral on 6 April 1942, assigned as Commander-in-Chief, Eastern Fleet

Phillips
Promoted to captain in June 1927
Promoted to rear admiral on 10 January 1939

That's the highest permanent rank Phillips achieved. Wikipedia says that naval staff considered Phillips a "desk admiral" and were not supportive of his assignment to lead Force Z. If HMS Ark Royal, arguably the RN's most capable carrier is being sent to the ITO then Britain must be thinking war rather than deterrence is likely and thus a better admiral will be sent. I wonder though if Sommerville will be needed where there is actual fighting.

One of the reasons I've kept Ark Royal at Ceylon is so she can be recalled to the eastern Med through Suez if necessary.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Good question. Per Wikipedia....

Sommerville
Promoted to captain on 31 December 1921
Promoted to rear admiral on 12 October 1933
Promoted to vice admiral on 11 September 1937
Promoted to full admiral on 6 April 1942, assigned as Commander-in-Chief, Eastern Fleet

Phillips
Promoted to captain in June 1927
Promoted to rear admiral on 10 January 1939

That's the highest permanent rank Phillips achieved. Wikipedia says that naval staff considered Phillips a "desk admiral" and were not supportive of his assignment to lead Force Z. If HMS Ark Royal, arguably the RN's most capable carrier is being sent to the ITO then Britain must be thinking war rather than deterrence is likely and thus a better admiral will be sent. I wonder though if Sommerville will be needed where there is actual fighting.

One of the reasons I've kept Ark Royal at Ceylon is so she can be recalled to the eastern Med through Suez if necessary.

Sounds like Somerville would lead Force Z under your hypothetical. All the better, I'd think, as he obviously has more experience with naval aviation and would likely better use the carriers.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Sounds like Somerville would lead Force Z under your hypothetical. All the better, I'd think, as he obviously has more experience with naval aviation and would likely better use the carriers.

Having two capital ships that can keep up with his two fast carriers is also a plus. Though, damn, with only 6 x single 4" and 2 x quad 40 mm AA guns, is there any 28 knot or faster big gun warship afloat in late 1941 with worse AA than HMS Repulse?

HMS Repulse desperately needs a AA upgrade, even a dozen or so 20 mm twin mounts would make a difference. The challenge is the best place to update the AA is the USA, and with a range of 3,650 nmi Repulse is too short legged to get to either the US east or west coast. Ideally Repulse should be swapped out for a trio of Didos.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Having two capital ships that can keep up with his two fast carriers is also a plus. Though, damn, with only 6 x single 4" and 2 x quad 40 mm AA guns, is there any 28 knot or faster big gun warship afloat in late 1941 with worse AA than HMS Repulse?

HMS Repulse desperately needs a AA upgrade, even a dozen or so 20 mm twin mounts would make a difference. The challenge is the best place to update the AA is the USA, and with a range of 3,650 nmi Repulse is too short legged to get to either the US east or west coast. Ideally Repulse should be swapped out for a trio of Didos.

The cruiser part of any such battle would be hard-fought, to say the least. The Brits better hope to hit a Type 93 launcher or two.

 

[Howard Gibson]

On 25 October 1941, HMS Prince of Wales and the escorting destroyers HMS Electra, Express, and HMS Hesperus sailed from Greenock, destined for Singapore. On the way they collect HMS Repulse. HMS Indomitable is ordered to deploy to Malaya by end of December or early Jan 1942 after her work-up. Let's have Churchill agree to also send HMS Ark Royal with Force Z, with Phillips collecting the carrier at Gibraltar. Along the way, the Admiralty makes a change of plan, instructing Force Z to stop at Ceylon to await HMS Indomitable. Thus, on December 7/8, 1941 Force Z and Ark Royal are at Ceylon with HMS Indomitable enroute. What orders should the Admiralty give Phillips? Should Phillips be replaced by Sommerville or someone more apt?

One unexpected benefit of sailing away with Force Z in late October 1941 is that Ark Royal isn't sunk 14 November 1941, and of course neither are Prince of Wales and Repulse sunk on 10 December 1941. As for the Atlantic and Med, both HMS Illustrious and Formidable re-enter service in early 1942. Until then the Atlantic and MTO will be covered by HMS Victorious, Eagle, Furious and Argus. I'd like to think that HMS Hermes will be sent home to add her limited air cover to the MTO.

What kind of aircraft were the Royal Navy going to use to shoot down Zeros and Oscars? The Fulmars were too slow to evade the Vals' rear gunners.

Perhaps the Japanese sink HMS Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable and Ark Royal.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What kind of aircraft were the Royal Navy going to use to shoot down Zeros and Oscars?

I don't understand the question. You use the aircraft you've brought and do your best, that should be obvious. The RN at Ceylon will have Fulmars, (eventually) Sea Hurricanes, Swordfish, Albacores and Shagbats, plus the support of the RAF Hurricanes, Blenheims and Catalinas on Ceylon. Hopefully the RN fleet can survive until Martlets and Seafires can be available, including the folding models necessary for Ark Royal. But until then, the RN must rely on its advantages of shipborne radar, sigint and night attack experience.

Perhaps the Japanese sink HMS Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable and Ark Royal.

Given the disparity in aircraft capability and numbers between the IJN and RN, this is certainly a strong possibility. Though the IJN must be careful too, as any losses in aircraft or, even temporarily, carriers will influence their plans and hopes for success at the coming campaign in the Coral Sea.

 

[Shortround6]

What kind of aircraft were the Royal Navy going to use to shoot down Zeros and Oscars? The Fulmars were too slow to evade the Vals' rear gunners.

Perhaps the Japanese sink HMS Prince of Wales, Repulse, Indomitable and Ark Royal.

rear gun in Val, one gun in each plane.

Except for the trigger guard pretty much unchanged from a WW I Lewis gun.

With a 16 to 1 firepower advantage the Val certainly doesn't want a Fulmar anywhere it can fire at the back of the Val, even for a fraction of a second.

I am sure Val gunners shot down some attackers, but the odds are not in the Val's favor. Also be sure to adjust the Val's speed for the altitude it would be flying at.

 

[nuuumannn]

During the Japanese attacks on Ceylon, the Fulmars did better than perhaps common perception might allow. At least three Vals were shot down by Fulmars on Easter Sunday 1942, the Fulmars were flown as single-seaters. A Zero was claimed as well, later confirmed, so the fight wasn't all one way in the air, despite a few Fulmars being shot down. That was when the Hermes was sunk, the Indom was missed altogether.

 

[Admiral Beez]

During the Japanese attacks on Ceylon, the Fulmars did better than perhaps common perception might allow. At least three Vals were shot down by Fulmars on Easter Sunday 1942, the Fulmars were flown as single-seaters. A Zero was claimed as well, later confirmed, so the fight wasn't all one way in the air, despite a few Fulmars being shot down.

And we have Nagumo's channeling of D'Oyly-Hughes in his neglect of keeping an effective CAP aloft. The Blenheim strike met no opposition inbound and only just missed hitting a IJN carrier. Presumably by March HMS Formidable and Illustrious have joined Sommerville's force, giving him four fast carriers and (with Ark Royal) sixty additional aircraft. Against a larger FAA, Nagumo's shoddy CAP and neglect of effective recon may well cost him.

If Sommerville's four fast fleet carriers and two fast capital ships can survive the IJN's Indian Ocean raid the RN will present an increasingly powerful force (as more RN and FAA units arrive) on Japan's flank. Yamamoto's plans for Operation Mo will have to take this into account.

 

[Peter Gunn]

What is the Japanese order of battle? Is the RN going to face off against Kido Butai at this juncture? Or are they just beating off land based air whilst going after convoys/landing forces?

I would think the RN might utilize their proficiency in night torpedo attacks if possible. Something akin to this: Armoured Aircraft Carriers

Hard to say what either side would have done right out of the gate, after all, there still had never been a CV vs. CV battle yet. And if they are going after invasion forces, I would think the RN would stay at arms length during the day and move in for night strikes as noted in the link I posted.

 

[Admiral Beez]

And if they are going after invasion forces, I would think the RN would stay at arms length during the day and move in for night strikes as noted in the link I posted.

My thinking is that the RN heavy units play very little to no role in the defence of Malaya and Singapore. The IJA troops have all landed in Malaya by mid-December, when Force Z is still holding at Ceylon awaiting Indomitable's arrival. By the time Force Z has both its fast carriers in mid-January Malaya is lost, and placing any large warships near IJAF and IJN land based strike aircraft is suicidal at this early stage.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And we have Nagumo's channeling of D'Oyly-Hughes in his neglect of keeping an effective CAP aloft. The Blenheim strike met no opposition inbound and only just missed hitting a IJN carrier. Presumably by March HMS Formidable and Illustrious have joined Sommerville's force, giving him four fast carriers and (with Ark Royal) sixty additional aircraft. Against a larger FAA, Nagumo's shoddy CAP and neglect of effective recon may well cost him.

If Sommerville's four fast fleet carriers and two fast capital ships can survive the IJN's Indian Ocean raid the RN will present an increasingly powerful force (as more RN and FAA units arrive) on Japan's flank. Yamamoto's plans for Operation Mo will have to take this into account.

If the Brits had four carriers handy, I bet Op C would have focused on them rather than shipping in the Bay of Bengal. That doesn't mean Nagumo would have done much better in CAP ops, or for that matter the battle itself. He got his ass beat at Midway and that was with the experience garnered on Op C.

If you're really interested in this topic, go look up Rob Stuart at the Tully's Port forum. He's pretty much the expert on British ops in the Indian Ocean.

 

[EwenS]

If the Brits had four carriers handy, I bet Op C would have focused on them rather than shipping in the Bay of Bengal. That doesn't mean Nagumo would have done much better in CAP ops, or for that matter the battle itself. He got his ass beat at Midway and that was with the experience garnered on Op C.

If you're really interested in this topic, go look up Rob Stuart at the Tully's Port forum. He's pretty much the expert on British ops in the Indian Ocean.

This is a shorter link to Rob Stuart's articles

Colombo strike
Loss of Cornwall and Dorsetshire
Trincomalee attack
Hermes, Vampire etc attack
Ozawa's attack on Bay of Bengal at same time as Operation C

Articles

Anyone interested in this period also needs to get hold of, read and digest, a copy of Andrew Boyd's "The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters. Linchpin of Victory 1935-1942". Now available much cheaper in paperback. The story of Force Z is merely the final chapter in British policy on Singapore. It cannot be understood at all without understanding the run up to it. That includes the politics and relations with the US, politically and militarily, and the Dutch.

Amazon product ASIN 1399096540
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1399096540/

There are also links here to Boyd's original thesis, which he turned into the above book, available FOC to download.

Worthy of better Memory: The Royal Navy and the defence of the Eastern Empire 1935 - 1942 - Buckingham E-Archive of Research

bear.buckingham.ac.uk

 

[MikeMeech]

Having two capital ships that can keep up with his two fast carriers is also a plus. Though, damn, with only 6 x single 4" and 2 x quad 40 mm AA guns, is there any 28 knot or faster big gun warship afloat in late 1941 with worse AA than HMS Repulse?

HMS Repulse desperately needs a AA upgrade, even a dozen or so 20 mm twin mounts would make a difference. The challenge is the best place to update the AA is the USA, and with a range of 3,650 nmi Repulse is too short legged to get to either the US east or west coast. Ideally Repulse should be swapped out for a trio of Didos.

Hi
The book 'Battleships & Battlecruisers of the Royal Navy since 1861' by Cdr. B. R. Coward RN, page 92 has Repulse's armament in 1941 as: 6x15 in (20 deg elevation); 18x4 in; 24x2pdr (3x8); 16x0.5 in; 8x20mm. This differed from Renown's armament. Data in 'Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946' page 9, appears to mainly agree. I don't think that USN Battleships had that much different in 1941 to early 1942, their heavier AA armament came in during refits in 1942 or even later.

Mike

 

[EwenS]

Repulse carried two different types of 4" mounts:-

1. 3 (not 4, the last had been replaced by a Pom-Pom) triple low angle 30 degree mounts as her secondary armament

Britain 4"/45 (10.2 cm) BL Marks IX and X - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

2. 6 single high angle 4" Mk.V AA guns.

Britain 4"/45 (10.2 cm) QF Mark V and Mark XV - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

Edit. All 3 Pom-poms were octuple mounts.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Repulse's armament in 1941 as: 6x15 in (20 deg elevation); 18x4 in; 24x2pdr (3x8); 16x0.5 in; 8x20mm. This differed from Renown's armament.

As Ewen points out, not all of that is AA, which is what I was referring to above. AIUI, Repulse's AA was six single 4" and two quad 40 mm AA guns.

The triple 4" guns and 3 pounders we see above and below were only for anti-ship, LA combat.

 

[MikeMeech]

As Ewen points out, not all of that is AA, which is what I was referring to above. AIUI, Repulse's AA was six single 4" and two quad 40 mm AA guns.

View attachment 664707

The triple 4" guns we see above and below were only for anti-ship, LA combat.

View attachment 664708

Hi
The drawing shows the 8 barrelled 2pdr pom pom, originally two were fitted but the third was added in November 1940, one of the triple 4 in mounts was removed according to Conway's. The 8x20mm weapons were added in 1941. The Renown had 6x15in (30 deg. elevation); 20x4.5 in, 24x2pdr (3x8) pom pom;16x0.5in. in 1941, appears no 20 mm fitted at that time.

Mike

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Renown had 6x15in (30 deg. elevation); 20x4.5 in, 24x2pdr (3x8) pom pom;16x0.5in. in 1941, appears no 20 mm fitted at that time.

I understand, but that's a different ship. We're looking at HMS Repulse.