GregP
Major
Agree, DonL ... when idiots lead the force, you can expect strange results.
Fw-187 could have been German P-51?
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DonL
Banned
Thank you that you can follow my way of thinking!
And this statement is without any sarcasm!
And this statement is without any sarcasm!
GregP
Major
Hi DonL.
We may or may not agree on many things, but I think the Fw 187 had very good potential. Not sure of the actual facts since I haven't seen the references, but would not disagree at this time. I believe the Nazis were led by an idiot who would not believe the very professional German generals, didn't follow the lead of Prince Von Metternich for a positive march toward peace, fostered competition among his force leaders, and put the Luftwaffe in the hands of a person who was both a poor leader later in life as well as a drug addict.
It was a recipe for disaster and resulted in same.
If he had followed the advice of the professional leadership and had instead simply rebuilt the German economy despite the treaty of Versaille and put Germany into a position of international leadership, which was certainly possible given the money and resources spent on war materiel and WWII in general, it would have resulted in a much better Germany and better world. I have no idea if the Fw 187 would have ever been a success in this world or would even have been needed, but I like the plane and the potential shown. Too bad Hitler didn't stick to art ... who knows, he might have done well at it. I have no idea who else might have been the German leader but, whoever it was would have been preferrable to reality, given the facts.
Luckily, it is all 65-70 years ago or so and we can look back and wonder, but really have no factual idea of the reality of the times until we talk with people who were there and lived it. I have and sympathize with the average German who was trying to live at the time amid poverty and food shortages. One of my friends was an older woman who was a Luftwaffe aircaft spotter when the war ended. At the close of the war she was 16 years old and recalls the times quite well from the perspective of a young teenager. She was Johanna Melin (married and American soldier and wound up here in Arizona). We also have a volunteer at the Planes of Fame museum who was a teenager in the Netherlands when the war happened and recalls hearing the launches of V-1's as well as seeing dogfights. He later flew for the Dutch Air Force in Meteors, Hunters, and the F-104. When he left the Air Force, he emigrated here and worked for JPL in California dn participated in the Space Shuttle program. Yuri Van der Voode.
The stories they tell were heart wrenching. Sorry anyone had to live through it.
From the point of view of a US citizen born in 1950, the Fw 187 is hard to credit with anything other than being an interesting prototype since they built 9 and cancelled the plane. From the point of view of potential, I can believe it was better than the Bf 110 or the Me 210 / 410, but have no way to decide if it is better than, say, a Tempest ... I doubt it, but could be wrong. There are not any OTHER twins better than a Tempest as far as I know.
So, the potential could be great or merely better than the Bf 110, which it surely was.
I hope you can understand that point of view ... I'm not trashing things German, I am stating that no other twins were as good as the late-war single engine fighters, except maybe the Mosquito due to simple speed and the difficulty of seeing it coming on radar. It wasn't faster or better ... it was AS FAST hard to intercept because of short notice, irregular routes to targets, and the difficulty of seeing it on radar due to wood construction.
So the Fw 187 seems interesting, but not a world-beater to me, based only on the population of twins it would have competed with. The Mosquito and Lightning, late models, were near the top and we have no evidence the Fw 187 would have been as good or better except conjecture. The combat record won't prove anything with only 9 machines built and flown, but may give an idication. The data simply isn't there for a meaningful comparison.
I fully understand it being a favorite of yours just as I like some of the not-proceeded-with American and British aircraft. We can think they were great (think Martin-Baker MB-5 and XP-72) ... but ithey were not to be.
I'd rather get togther and share some beer and Sauerbraten than fight about things that happened 70 years ago!
Cheers to you.
We may or may not agree on many things, but I think the Fw 187 had very good potential. Not sure of the actual facts since I haven't seen the references, but would not disagree at this time. I believe the Nazis were led by an idiot who would not believe the very professional German generals, didn't follow the lead of Prince Von Metternich for a positive march toward peace, fostered competition among his force leaders, and put the Luftwaffe in the hands of a person who was both a poor leader later in life as well as a drug addict.
It was a recipe for disaster and resulted in same.
If he had followed the advice of the professional leadership and had instead simply rebuilt the German economy despite the treaty of Versaille and put Germany into a position of international leadership, which was certainly possible given the money and resources spent on war materiel and WWII in general, it would have resulted in a much better Germany and better world. I have no idea if the Fw 187 would have ever been a success in this world or would even have been needed, but I like the plane and the potential shown. Too bad Hitler didn't stick to art ... who knows, he might have done well at it. I have no idea who else might have been the German leader but, whoever it was would have been preferrable to reality, given the facts.
Luckily, it is all 65-70 years ago or so and we can look back and wonder, but really have no factual idea of the reality of the times until we talk with people who were there and lived it. I have and sympathize with the average German who was trying to live at the time amid poverty and food shortages. One of my friends was an older woman who was a Luftwaffe aircaft spotter when the war ended. At the close of the war she was 16 years old and recalls the times quite well from the perspective of a young teenager. She was Johanna Melin (married and American soldier and wound up here in Arizona). We also have a volunteer at the Planes of Fame museum who was a teenager in the Netherlands when the war happened and recalls hearing the launches of V-1's as well as seeing dogfights. He later flew for the Dutch Air Force in Meteors, Hunters, and the F-104. When he left the Air Force, he emigrated here and worked for JPL in California dn participated in the Space Shuttle program. Yuri Van der Voode.
The stories they tell were heart wrenching. Sorry anyone had to live through it.
From the point of view of a US citizen born in 1950, the Fw 187 is hard to credit with anything other than being an interesting prototype since they built 9 and cancelled the plane. From the point of view of potential, I can believe it was better than the Bf 110 or the Me 210 / 410, but have no way to decide if it is better than, say, a Tempest ... I doubt it, but could be wrong. There are not any OTHER twins better than a Tempest as far as I know.
So, the potential could be great or merely better than the Bf 110, which it surely was.
I hope you can understand that point of view ... I'm not trashing things German, I am stating that no other twins were as good as the late-war single engine fighters, except maybe the Mosquito due to simple speed and the difficulty of seeing it coming on radar. It wasn't faster or better ... it was AS FAST hard to intercept because of short notice, irregular routes to targets, and the difficulty of seeing it on radar due to wood construction.
So the Fw 187 seems interesting, but not a world-beater to me, based only on the population of twins it would have competed with. The Mosquito and Lightning, late models, were near the top and we have no evidence the Fw 187 would have been as good or better except conjecture. The combat record won't prove anything with only 9 machines built and flown, but may give an idication. The data simply isn't there for a meaningful comparison.
I fully understand it being a favorite of yours just as I like some of the not-proceeded-with American and British aircraft. We can think they were great (think Martin-Baker MB-5 and XP-72) ... but ithey were not to be.
I'd rather get togther and share some beer and Sauerbraten than fight about things that happened 70 years ago!
Cheers to you.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You may be perhaps overlooking the F-82 Twin Mustang.
Besides it's speed of 482mph (740kmh), range of 2,350 miles (3,605km) and a ceiling of 38,900 feet (11,855m), it set a time/distance record in 1947 that has never been broken. A P-82B (44-65168) flew non-stop from Hawaii to New York, covering 5,051 miles (8,129km) in 14 hours and 32 minutes.
(As far the Tempest, I'm sure you meant a different aircraft)
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Without redisign the Fw 187 was only capable for early-style night fighters with small radars, even the Bf 110 had serious space limitations for installing all the electronics stuff and a third crew member. A miracle how they found sufficient space to install SM guns.
Focke-Wulf used some experience gained with the Fw 187 to design the Ta 154 although with an own set of problems which led to the cancellation.
Focke-Wulf used some experience gained with the Fw 187 to design the Ta 154 although with an own set of problems which led to the cancellation.
No, with him. He had the Mg 81Z in front of him and the MG FF left and right.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Me_110_SM.jpg
GregP
Major
Didn't say the Tempest was a twin, Milosh, and you know that. "Other" meant "other than the Fw 187."
I said there were no twins other than the Fw 187 that were as good a single engine late model fighter such as the Tempest. So it is hard to believe that the Fw 187 twin, which was cancelled, would have done any better. If it were clearly superior, surely the Germans would have produced it. right?
The F-82 , while it did fly in WWII, didn't reach squadron service until well after the war. I didn't mention it because it wasn't a consideration for me as a combat aircraft in WWII. Had it been available during the war, it would have been a very difficult customer for an enemy, but the same can be said for other "might have been" planes, too, on both sides. At least the Fw 187 was built and flew early on, so it deserves inclusion in a discussion of the air war becasuse it could easily have been placed into quantity production, while the P-82 could not have been pressed into service under any circumstances that are reasonable to consider before the war in Germany ended. That is, the Fw 187 was plausible as a combat aircraft in WWII whiole the P-82 was really not.
I can see using the P-82 as a WWII aerial benchmark since it first flew during the war, but not as a combat participant.
I said there were no twins other than the Fw 187 that were as good a single engine late model fighter such as the Tempest. So it is hard to believe that the Fw 187 twin, which was cancelled, would have done any better. If it were clearly superior, surely the Germans would have produced it. right?
The F-82 , while it did fly in WWII, didn't reach squadron service until well after the war. I didn't mention it because it wasn't a consideration for me as a combat aircraft in WWII. Had it been available during the war, it would have been a very difficult customer for an enemy, but the same can be said for other "might have been" planes, too, on both sides. At least the Fw 187 was built and flew early on, so it deserves inclusion in a discussion of the air war becasuse it could easily have been placed into quantity production, while the P-82 could not have been pressed into service under any circumstances that are reasonable to consider before the war in Germany ended. That is, the Fw 187 was plausible as a combat aircraft in WWII whiole the P-82 was really not.
I can see using the P-82 as a WWII aerial benchmark since it first flew during the war, but not as a combat participant.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Well, sure, given the timeline, the XP-82 was a late-comer to the scene, though it drew blood against adversaries in the skies of Korea.
As far as contenders for the dominant twin that could have been, in the skies over Europe, the Grumman XP-50 would have been a formidable aircraft to deal with after 1941 with it's top speed of 424mph (680kph), a ceiling of 40,000 feet (12,190m) and a range of 1,250 miles (2,010km). I think it's armament of 2 x .50 MG and 2 x 20mm cannon could have been better, though.
I suppose an honorable mention could go to the Grumman XF5F-1, too...but it's performance wasn't as good as the XP-50 and suffered several problems (though not as drastic as an exploding supercharger like the XP-50)
As far as contenders for the dominant twin that could have been, in the skies over Europe, the Grumman XP-50 would have been a formidable aircraft to deal with after 1941 with it's top speed of 424mph (680kph), a ceiling of 40,000 feet (12,190m) and a range of 1,250 miles (2,010km). I think it's armament of 2 x .50 MG and 2 x 20mm cannon could have been better, though.
I suppose an honorable mention could go to the Grumman XF5F-1, too...but it's performance wasn't as good as the XP-50 and suffered several problems (though not as drastic as an exploding supercharger like the XP-50)
At least he could and had flown in combat. They didn't exactly hand out "Pour le Merite" like candy. If he was such an incompetent I doubt that he would have assumed command of JG 1 before his 25th birthday. Many senior Luftwaffe officers and RLM officials (including Milch) couldn't even fly.
Goering (along with Speer) was considered to be one of the most intelligent, even impressive, of the Nazi leadership on trial at Nuremberg. Shawcross said as much. Such simplistic platitudes are neither historically accurate, nor helpful to a realistic assessment of German production and the Luftwaffe in particular.
Steve
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parsifal
Colonel
Off topic, i know, but so much that was wrong with the LW has been blamed on Goring when in fact it was the Luftwaffe itself that was at fault. Goring was not nearly perfect, but he was also not the buffoon modern apologists for the LW would have you believe either. He was a Nazi, which had a certain in built blindness to senior leadership but he was no fool either
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
One huge problem within German leadership was the in-fighting and political posturing.
This caused a serious amount of delays and/or failed programs that could have held great benefit to their effort.
This caused a serious amount of delays and/or failed programs that could have held great benefit to their effort.
DonL
Banned
You are both wrong with your analyse!
I have a university work to get the german doctor grade by Ernst Stilla, I have linked it here in the Forum, but the Link is dead now.
Ernst Stilla work was named:
The Air Force in the battle for air supremacy.
Major influences on the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the defensive at the west and
over Germany in World War II with special reference to factors
"Air defense", "Research and development" and "human resources".
He did a very good research and described very detailed, how Göring established his power again after the death of Wever to every small decision of the LW.
Also how he established his power to play the other decision makers off against each other. Stilla described his lead as very destructive and only on the focus to hold his own power, without major interest to the real problems/interests of the LW.
Albert Kesselring was interviewed after the war and has described Göring very good after the death of Wever and his stile to lead.
He described him as lazy, don't like to work (espicially document work) not interested in details and no knowledge about technic and not interested to learn about technic A typical report with Göring was 30 min on the issue and 2 hours WWI anecdotes.
Also we have in germany the health documents about Göring and how his Morphine addiction expanded after 1935, he was two times 1936 und 1938 in Italy for withdrawal treatments. This Treatments lasted several month, but nobody was allowed to do decissions at this time for the LW, the senior officiers must fly to Italy for report.
I have a university work to get the german doctor grade by Ernst Stilla, I have linked it here in the Forum, but the Link is dead now.
Ernst Stilla work was named:
The Air Force in the battle for air supremacy.
Major influences on the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the defensive at the west and
over Germany in World War II with special reference to factors
"Air defense", "Research and development" and "human resources".
He did a very good research and described very detailed, how Göring established his power again after the death of Wever to every small decision of the LW.
Also how he established his power to play the other decision makers off against each other. Stilla described his lead as very destructive and only on the focus to hold his own power, without major interest to the real problems/interests of the LW.
Albert Kesselring was interviewed after the war and has described Göring very good after the death of Wever and his stile to lead.
He described him as lazy, don't like to work (espicially document work) not interested in details and no knowledge about technic and not interested to learn about technic A typical report with Göring was 30 min on the issue and 2 hours WWI anecdotes.
Also we have in germany the health documents about Göring and how his Morphine addiction expanded after 1935, he was two times 1936 und 1938 in Italy for withdrawal treatments. This Treatments lasted several month, but nobody was allowed to do decissions at this time for the LW, the senior officiers must fly to Italy for report.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Do not tell me for a single moment that there was no infighting and power-struggle in the German high command.
Kesselring did not get along with Milch, Milch did not get along with Udet and this is just a small example.
It existed throughout the high command to a high degree.
Kesselring did not get along with Milch, Milch did not get along with Udet and this is just a small example.
It existed throughout the high command to a high degree.
DonL
Banned
Under Wevers lead the RLM worked much more efficient and technical knowledge, also Wever organized the work without infighting.
Göring stimulated the infighting to hold his power and didn't get a contender.
The death of Wever and the replacement of Wimmer was the first very big Battle the Allies won against the LW without knowing.
Göring stimulated the infighting to hold his power and didn't get a contender.
The death of Wever and the replacement of Wimmer was the first very big Battle the Allies won against the LW without knowing.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Wever was in favor of strategic bombing, the day of his death, the Bomber A program was announced. Also, the day of his death unleashed political posturing that created a madhouse for the Luftwaffe that didn't end until the last days of the war. There is no way in hell you're going to be able to conduct and operate an efficient program with such chaos, suspicion and out-right fighting like what was going on in the OKW/RLM. It's distracting, divisive, creates an air of confusion and a waste of effort and time.
The same can be said for the Wehrmacht and the General staff. With the political infighting and back-stabbing going on, it's a wonder they were able to even mount an offensive, let alone fight a war at all. And this wasn't just isolated to the military, the political figures that lapped at Der Fuhrer's feet were much worse.
Gone were the days of Prussian dislipline and order...the heirarchy of the high command between 1940 and 1945 was a disaster.
The greatest weapon the Allies had in their arsenal was the German leadership, and it worked quite well.
The same can be said for the Wehrmacht and the General staff. With the political infighting and back-stabbing going on, it's a wonder they were able to even mount an offensive, let alone fight a war at all. And this wasn't just isolated to the military, the political figures that lapped at Der Fuhrer's feet were much worse.
Gone were the days of Prussian dislipline and order...the heirarchy of the high command between 1940 and 1945 was a disaster.
The greatest weapon the Allies had in their arsenal was the German leadership, and it worked quite well.
