Fw-187 could have been German P-51?

[DonL]

Exactly. The difference is that the Me 110 proved itself a capable night fighter, decent ground attack aircraft (both in the BoB and later on the Eastern Front) and even day fighter (at least in the East) and adopted various other roles. It was one of the most versatile and successful aircraft of the war on all sides. It was still being produced in 1945, nearly four years after production had been scheduled to finish.

The Fw 187 may or may not have proved a better twin engine fighter than the Bf 110, we will never know. I think it would have, but the Bf 110 is often under estimated due to its showing in the BoB as an escort fighter.
What it could never have done was perform all the other roles that the Bf 110 undertook with considerable success. Lack of size and space (a criticism also levelled at the larger Bf 110) precluded its development in other roles.

By 1942 the RLM did not want a "light destroyer". It wanted heavily armed aircraft, initially as tank destroyers and then as bomber destroyers. This is when we increasingly seem the term "heavy fighter" used. It is also when the "fast bomber" concept is being tied to the same type as the heavy fighter. These were roles that the Fw 187, already ignored in a role where it had potential, could not perform.


By 1944 the Do 335 was being promoted as a multi role combat aircraft in a very modern sense. It was a solution that the RLM had been edging towards since at least 1942.

Cheers

Steve

From where comes your claims? Do you have proves? Was the FW 187 ever tested in this roles?
Your answer is nothing more then a claim!
The FW 187 A0 proved to be the better fighter as the Bf 110 and also proved to be a decent ground attack aircraft at Denmark.
We didn't know if it would be a successfull nightfighter!
FW engineers claimed that the FW 187 could fill the nightfighter role, so we didn't know.

The Bf 110 was produced until 1945, because the LW had after the rejection of the FW 187 1938/39 and 1942 no other possibilitys through the lack of engines, or the a/c's weren't production ready.
The success of the Bf 110 was average until 1942/43 after that she was clearly inferior in all roles.
Even the Ju 88 with BMW 801/Jumo 213 engines was better in all roles!

 

[stona]

From where comes your claims? Do you have proves? Was the FW 187 ever tested in this roles?

I've already posted relevant sections of the minutes held at the offices of Generalluftzeugmeister, the RLM, Karinhall, Goering's train, Messerschmitt and I think Gothaer Waggonfabrik in this and other threads. I don't intend to justify myself again here.

The Fw 187 was not tested in those other roles because it never got that far. It was considered unsuitable for the roles and rejected. Now, you may think it would have made a good night fighter or what ever but the men at the RLM and from the Luftwaffe did not agree with your assessment for various reasons.

These decisions were not taken by any one individual (Udet, Milch, Goering or anybody else) They were the results of discussions held over some time with access to data from both the manufacturers and the Luftwaffe and in the presence of representatives of the manufacturers (both airframes and engines), the various arms of the Luftwaffe, officers from the RLM and sometimes other Ministries involved in armaments production.

At no point have I seen any evidence that anyone apart from Focke-Wulf mounted a forceful argument in support of the Fw 187 and they didn't really bother after 1940. They had other contracts to fulfil and were doing rather nicely out of the on going war. The Fw 187 just didn't feature in strategic thinking or planning after it's initial rejection. As I said before it only gets a mention in the context of the on going Me 210 debacle.

It is possible that they were all wrong and that you are correct, but that's not something I can help you with.

Cheers

Steve

 

[DonL]

The Fw 187 was not tested in those other roles because it never got that far. It was considered unsuitable for the roles and rejected. Now, you may think it would have made a good night fighter or what ever but the men at the RLM and from the Luftwaffe did not agree with your assessment for various reasons.

Funnily enough the FW 187 V4/A0 was also developed and ordered from the RLM with intention to be the first LW nightfighter, which can you read at Dietmar Hermanns book in the capitel about the V4. Also I have never seen a document were she was considered unsuitable. Perhaps you can provide one?

These decisions were not taken by any one individual (Udet, Milch, Goering or anybody else) They were the results of discussions held over some time with access to data from both the manufacturers and the Luftwaffe and in the presence of representatives of the manufacturers (both airframes and engines), the various arms of the Luftwaffe, officers from the RLM and sometimes other Ministries involved in armaments production.

Again, you have never provided documents for such a claim, where are the documents to prove this claim?
I have never seen a document, where the FW 187 was rejected for technical (performance, space, loaded weight etc.) reasons.
Till now there only existing political statements of the decision makers, mainly Göring. So prove your claims with proves!

 

[stona]

Funnily enough the FW 187 V4/A0 was also developed and ordered from the RLM with intention to be the first LW nightfighter, which can you read at Dietmar Hermanns book in the capitel about the V4. Also I have never seen a document were she was considered unsuitable. Perhaps you can provide one?



Again, you have never provided documents for such a claim, where are the documents to prove this claim?
I have never seen a document, where the FW 187 was rejected for technical (performance, space, loaded weight etc.) reasons.
Till now there only existing political statements of the decision makers, mainly Göring. So prove your claims with proves!

Well if you go back and read this and other threads you will find the quotes I provided and references for them. I am not trawling back over all my references, translations and notes again to humour you.

The steno minutes of meetings at the RLM with the participation of Milch from 1941 to 1944 are available from the Federal Archives at Freiburg. You have the advantage of not having to pay someone to translate them for you! Good luck.

The minutes of a meeting will often show that the chairman summarises the views expounded and the decisions taken. That does not mean that he made the decision in isolation, though ultimately it is he that takes it. That's how business works, that's how committees work.

Every decision taken has a political aspect to it. That does not mean that the decision was made on political grounds.

Steve

 

[DonL]

You have provided RLM requirements of an fictional destroyer aircraft at 1934 nothing more.
And the conclusion was the Bf 110, which was in no terms fitting this fictional requirements. You have never ever provided a single explicit document about the FW 187

 

[stona]

You have never ever provided a single explicit document about the FW 187

I have provided sections of minutes from RLM meetings pertinent to the Fw187 on the rare occasions it was even considered. If you want to see the originals I've told you where to look.

That's more than I can say for your (or Hermann's) Fw 187 originals.

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

Funnily enough the FW 187 V4/A0 was also developed and ordered from the RLM with intention to be the first LW nightfighter, which can you read at Dietmar Hermanns book in the capitel about the V4. Also I have never seen a document were she was considered unsuitable. Perhaps you can provide one?

Well, perhaps you know something the rest of us don't. The Fw187's fuselage was too small for the FuG radar equipment from all accounts I have read.

Perhaps you can provide here a photo of a production NachtJager? It would be interesting to know which FuG equipment was fitted, was it the same as fitted to the Ta154? How many of these were produced and saw frontline service and how did they do against the DH Mosquito from 1942/43 onwards?

Again, you have never provided documents for such a claim, where are the documents to prove this claim?
I have never seen a document, where the FW 187 was rejected for technical (performance, space, loaded weight etc.) reasons.
Till now there only existing political statements of the decision makers, mainly Göring. So prove your claims with proves!

Since the Fw187 was clearly superior to any other production model, what units operated them and what was their kill ratio during front line service? I seem to have missed statistics regarding thier performance.

Were these the single-seat or the two seat version? And what engines did they finally settle on, as I've only seen a few examples of the DB series, though I heard one was fitted with BMW801 engines. When the Allied long-range escorts appeared over the Reich, how did they fare in battle?

I seem to have over-looked thier combat statistics in this regard. As it stands, I only have information about 9 airframes produced, so I'd like to see how the C version (and all the later versions) performed and perhaps compare statistics against other JG or NJ units operating twin-engined airframes.

Looking forward to seeing your hard-data on this, so it'll once and for all settle a 60+ year old mystery.

Thanks!

 

[DonL]

I'm here to discuss technical issues, I have no time to discuss sarcasm.
Read a sophisticated book about the FW 187, then we can perhaps discuss again.

 

[GrauGeist]

That wasn't sarcasm, I was looking for substantial documentation.

You insist that the RLM ordered it into production, fine...so where's the production statistics?

As it stands, only 9 were produced... So what happened to the others?

Again, no sarcasm, simply a request for clarification.

If you cannot produce this, then your argument is invalid.

 

[DonL]

The FW 187 A0 was a pre production series!

3 were built as pre-production series and were flying from 1939-1944 combat missions at Bremen, Denmark and Norway.
This is confirmed from primary/official sources.
There are no official combat documents, but pilots, which flew the FW 187 got the EK I and other statements from pilots at Denmark.

The FW 187 V4/A0 was official tested at Rechlin against the Bf 110 and Bf 109 at 1938 and has beaten both of them.
Also there were comparation flights at Denmark against the Bf 110.

 

[GrauGeist]

Yes, yes...we all know about those three...

 

[Kryten]

Beat them at what? rather vague statement?

So 3 were operational in Denmark but there are no operational reports?

How did they manage for spares, three aircraft wont warrant a stock of parts being held, how many hours did they fly?

 

[DonL]

Yes, yes...we all know about those three...

So it was sarcasm!

Beat them at what? rather vague statement?

The FW 187 was much much faster (about 80-90 km/h) then Bf 110B (also with Jumo 210 engines), turned tighter, rolled better and was much more agile, with better endurande.
The FW 187 was faster (about 50 km/h) then Bf 109 (also with Jumo engines) and equal in roll and turn.

How did they manage for spares, three aircraft wont warrant a stock of parts being held, how many hours did they fly?

For the Jumo 210 were enough spare parts existing, for parts for the a/c's were built new or fed from the other prototypes mainly the V7 and V6

 

[GregP]

Do you know where any copies of the Focke Wulf documents mentioned in Hermann's book bibliography can be found?

 

[Denniss]

Either Bundesarchive Freiburg or Airbus.

 

[Shortround6]

I do have the book and my opinion lies somewhat between the two camps.

The Book has answered a few questions about the FW 187s that did exist. It has cleared up questions about the cooling 'systems'.

It has opened up or failed to answer ( at least in the English version) the question of exactly which DB 601 was fitted and what power level was used for the 390-1mph flight.
From the wording in the book it may have been a 1350hp version. The plane may also have been fitted for two machine guns instead of four and the MG 17 installation on the FW 187 was not exactly low drag.

As for the later "paper" versions. I see no real reason to doubt the author that such documents exist. I am fairly certain that somebody could find all manner of "paper" airplanes in allied archives with absolutely wonderful performance. We sure built enough real ones with performance that didn't come up to expectations. And a few that exceeded expectations.

I am sure FW was trying to pitch the FW 187 design (or offshoots) when ever they could. Many allied companies did the same thing.

Grumman Avenger as a single seat attack plane. Just because a company pitches an idea doesn't mean it was a good one. And this was actually built/converted.

FW was pitching one of the later "C" version as a night fighter and said it was possible, (they weren't going to try to sell it and claim it was impossible were they? ) but in the book there are only a few references to this. there is NO drawing of a "night fighter nose" there may be a drawing of an armament lay out but NOT one of a radar layout or installation, there is no photo (or mention) of a wooden night fighter cockpit mock-up(much better for seeing if things fit than flat drawings), so one has to wonder how serious they really were.

BTW pre war or early war "night fighters" simply meant how suitable the plane was for taking off and landing at night, it actually had nothing to do with finding the enemy aircraft at night. Shielding pilot from exhaust glare, how tricky to land ( landing speed, THE reason the Gladiator was fitted with flaps, I mean, how slow does a biplane have to land in the day time?) and fitting a few night aids like a couple of flares to help illuminate the landing field or 'emergency' landing field when the night fighter can't find it's own field.
The book doesn't seem to make a lot of 'claims' ( or at least more than many other books about single aircraft that tend to view their subjects as war winners all on their own) aside from presenting some of this information.

2nd BTW. The book doesn't present the FW engineers as infallible, and judging by the FW 190 program and the FW 154 one has to rather careful just what is being compared. FW 154 prototype may have hit predicted numbers but when fitted with guns and radar aerials speed fell by over 10%. Production FW 190s changed from the FW 190v1 and V2 in how many ways? Curtiss hit a similar problem with the XP-46. First prototype completed (w/o operational equipment) hit predicted performance numbers. 2nd machine with full armament/equipment failed by around 50mph.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The real question remains. If it was so good? If it was a world beater? If it performed so well in "Denmark", then why not full production?

 

[fastmongrel]

The real question remains. If it was so good? If it was a world beater? If it performed so well in "Denmark", then why not full production?

Paper aeroplanes get soggy when it rains

 

[Elmas]

.............
The Fw187's fuselage was too small for the FuG radar equipment from all accounts I have read.
....................

No problem: just some slight modifications.....

From Price A. Bombers of WWII - Italian edition

 

[DonL]

The real question remains. If it was so good? If it was a world beater? If it performed so well in "Denmark", then why not full production?

Why wasn't the He 177 built with a four gondula? With four engines? Why was this aircraft built to dive bomb?
Look at the fulsage, the general layout and the payload and you ask why the FW 187 was not built?
Because after the death of Wever and the replacement of Wimmer, a junkie lead the LW, without any plan or any knowledge to technical issues! That's the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!