FW-190 and The Battle of Britain

Howard Gibson · Dec 13, 2024

tomo pauk said:
There needs to happen awful lot of the German preparations before the success in the BoB happens.
Fighters need drop tanks. Having the 109s and 190s (for this scenarion) outfitted with such would've meant that the Bf 110s are much less pressed wrt. the longer-ranged escort.
Longer firing times for the main armament; the 8 LMG set-up on the LW fighters would've been probably more practical than staying on the 60 rd drums. Although a belt-fed MG FF, or at least 90 rd drum would've been excellent.
Bombers will still need the increased defensive firepower. The Do 17 was with a feeble bomb load when compared with either the He 111 or the Ju 88. And even the bomb load of these was lame when compared with what the Allies used from 1942 on above Germany.
The Ju 87 was as much of a liability as it was an asset.

Strategy - what are the intentions of the air campaign? Is it defeating the RAF in such a scale that southern half of the UK is the Luftwaffe playing field? Or is it destroying of the British industry? Or is it to cut off the UK from receiving the materials across the Atlantic? Germany can't do all of the three in ewhat is left of 1940.

How to use the assets (ie. tactics, doctrine)? Does the LW has enough of fighters to do both freijagd and close escort? I'd say no.

For starters, Fw190s were simply not available for the Battle of Britain. Making it available means starting the design earlier before critical tactical lessons are learned, and using an available radial engine. BMW132?

When your alternate history consists of the Germans not making mistakes, we should consider correcting some British mistakes too. They can switch from the Idiotenreihe ("idiot's file") to the finger four fighter formations. Maybe they can make fewer Whitleys and Hampdens, and more Spitfires.

Shortround6 · Dec 13, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
Maybe they can make fewer Whitleys and Hampdens, and more Spitfires.

You are stuck with the Whitleys, Nothing else will act as the heavy bomb truck until you get Hercules engines into the Wellington.
Hampdens are suspect, not that were a failure but they just didn't much that a Pegasus powered Wellington couldn't do. An extra 10-15mph was not going to save them.
But building more Spitfires with Pegasus engines or Dagg.......no, no, not going there

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
For starters, Fw190s were simply not available for the Battle of Britain.

You don't say

Howard Gibson said:
Making it available means starting the design earlier before critical tactical lessons are learned, and using an available radial engine. BMW132?

Any German 9 cyl engine is badly behind the curve. Far better is to use a V12:

Howard Gibson said:
When your alternate history consists of the Germans not making mistakes, we should consider correcting some British mistakes too. They can switch from the Idiotenreihe ("idiot's file") to the finger four fighter formations. Maybe they can make fewer Whitleys and Hampdens, and more Spitfires.

Nothing prevents you for suggesting the British doing stuff better.

Howard Gibson · Dec 13, 2024

tomo pauk said:
Any German 9 cyl engine is badly behind the curve. Far better is to use a V12:

The available V12 is the Junkers Jumo 211.

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
The available V12 is the Junkers Jumo 211.

Good.

yulzari · Dec 14, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
Maybe they can make fewer Whitleys and Hampdens, and more Spitfires.

The Shortfall was in pilots not fighters. Perhaps more Tiger Moths and Oxfords?

Admiral Beez · Dec 18, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
What sort of engine would the Fw190 have had in in 1940? The BMW801 was not reliable in 1941.

I assume a DB601 or 605.

1937 Fw-190 proposal powered by DB601 engine.

Many web sites mention this proposed fighter aircraft but I have yet to find any details. Are the historical specifications available?

ww2aircraft.net

Howard Gibson · Dec 18, 2024

Admiral Beez said:
I assume a DB601 or 605.

1937 Fw-190 proposal powered by DB601 engine.

Many web sites mention this proposed fighter aircraft but I have yet to find any details. Are the historical specifications available?

ww2aircraft.net

DB605s were not available yet. DB601s were not available unless you were Messerschmitt. Accounts of the DB601 powered He100 rarely mention that the Luftwaffe had an alternate aircraft to put into production.

Admiral Beez · Dec 18, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
DB605s were not available yet. DB601s were not available unless you were Messerschmitt. Accounts of the DB601 powered He100 rarely mention that the Luftwaffe had an alternate aircraft to put into production.

Late war Fw 190Ds did well with liquid cooled Junkers Jumos. I suppose we'll start with Jumos like Bf 109A-Ds.

Jabberwocky · Dec 19, 2024

GTX said:
If they had gained air superiority and largely defeated the RAF through taking out/totally exhausting their staff (air and ground) then they would be in a far better position to do other things thereafter.

Is that a realistic counterfactual though?

Given the balance of the manpower situation and Fighter Command options with airfields/relief fields, isn't is more likely that it's German manpower rather than British that is going to be exhausted first?

Wood & Dempster in The Narrow Margin show Fighter Command pilot strength going upwards for the majority of the BoB:

15 June: 1094
30 June: 1200
06 July: 1259
13 July: 1341
20 July: 1365
27 July: 1377
03 August: 1434
10 August: 1396
17 August: 1379
24 August: 1377
31 August: 1422
07 September: 1381
14 September: 1492
21 September: 1509
28 September: 1581
05 October: 1703
12 October: 1752
19 October: 1737
26 October: 1735
02 November: 1796

Does anyone have similar numbers for German fighter pilots?

Howard Gibson · Dec 19, 2024

Admiral Beez said:
Late war Fw 190Ds did well with liquid cooled Junkers Jumos. I suppose we'll start with Jumos like Bf 109A-Ds.

They did well with Junkers Jumo 213s. Anything with a Jumo 211 went 30-40mph slower than stuff DB601 powered.

tomo pauk · Dec 19, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
Anything with a Jumo 211 went 30-40mph slower than stuff DB601 powered.

That is very interesting. Any real-world examples?

Howard Gibson · Dec 19, 2024

tomo pauk said:
That is very interesting. Any real-world examples?

I am looking more carefully here. Both the Bf109 and the He112 went from the Jumo210 to the DB601 engines, and gained 30mph. The Jumo211 is a bit more complicated. The Avia S-199 is a Bf109G converted from DB605 to Jumo211. The Avia, which had a horrible engine installation, was about 20mph slower.

Ernst Heinkel was told to switch the He100 from DB601 power to Jumo211, and he refused. The cooling systems were different. In 1939/40, Kurt Tank had the option of using the Jumo211, and he didn't.

tomo pauk · Dec 19, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
I am looking more carefully here. Both the Bf109 and the He112 went from the Jumo210 to the DB601 engines, and gained 30mph. The Jumo211 is a bit more complicated. The Avia S-199 is a Bf109G converted from DB605 to Jumo211. The Avia, which had a horrible engine installation, was about 20mph slower.

Neither of these examples is a comparison between the Jumo 211 and DB 601.

Howard Gibson said:
Ernst Heinkel was told to switch the He100 from DB601 power to Jumo211, and he refused. The cooling systems were different. In 1939/40, Kurt Tank had the option of using the Jumo211, and he didn't.

Sources for the 1st and 3rd sentence there?

Howard Gibson · Dec 19, 2024

tomo pauk said:
Neither of these examples is a comparison between the Jumo 211 and DB 601.

Sources for the 1st and 3rd sentence there?

Heinkel 100, 112, by R.S. Hirsch and Uwe Feist, Aero Publishers.

tomo pauk · Dec 19, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
Heinkel 100, 112, by R.S. Hirsch and Uwe Feist, Aero Publishers.

Thank you.
Anything about this:

Howard Gibson said:
In 1939/40, Kurt Tank had the option of using the Jumo211, and he didn't.

Shortround6 · Dec 19, 2024

Engines used in the He 100 (and the Fw 187) were a bit different than regular DB 601s. I would guess just the things associated with the cooling, like what pumps, both feed and scavenging. Unknown if they used the oil system to handle more or less of the heat load.

Trying to sort out the Jumo 211 after putting in a lot of work with the DB might have been discouraging.

Howard Gibson · Dec 19, 2024

tomo pauk said:
Thank you.
Anything about this:

I know that Tank knew better than to design around the DB601, which, however good it was, had been reserved for Messerschmitt. The Jumo 211 was available, but he went for the BMW 139. It appears that Tank had to convince the Luftwaffe that radial engines were a good idea, so they must have been pushing Jumo 211s. Demand for it seems to have been an issue according to Gordon Swanborough and William Green in The Focke-Wulf Fw190. The Jumo 211 was used on Heinkel He111s, Junkers Ju87 and Ju88s.

The BMW 139 sounds like an interesting engine, 55.4 litres according to Wikipedia. The BMW 801 was only 42 litres, yet it was heavier and longer, and it worked. Maybe there was more space for cooling air.

tomo pauk · Dec 20, 2024

Howard Gibson said:
I know that Tank knew better than to design around the DB601, which, however good it was, had been reserved for Messerschmitt. The Jumo 211 was available, but he went for the BMW 139. It appears that Tank had to convince the Luftwaffe that radial engines were a good idea, so they must have been pushing Jumo 211s.

Let's not add 2+2 and arrive at 5.
BMW 139 was offering, at 4.5km, ~400 HP more than the DB 601A and ~500 HP more than the Jumo 211A. Or about 40-50% more power. And also much more of the exhaust thrust. All without the weight penalty, so there was a lot of reasoning that Tank went for the 139.
Little Tank knew that the BMW 139 would prove to be an unreliable mess.

Howard Gibson said:
The BMW 139 sounds like an interesting engine, 55.4 litres according to Wikipedia. The BMW 801 was only 42 litres, yet it was heavier and longer, and it worked. Maybe there was more space for cooling air.

It was of the same displacement as the BMW 801, ie. 42 liters.
The BMW 801 was a full redesign of the 139, with the 'normal' layout of the crankshaft and bearings, that pushed up both length and weight. It indeed worked, even if that was not a given in 1939-41.

Geoffrey Sinclair · Dec 20, 2024

Luftwaffe, Strategy for Defeat 1933-45 Williamson Murray, Bf109 pilot situation, mid 1940

May available beginning of month - 1,110, operational - 1,050, losses during month 76
June available beginning of month - 1,199, operational - 839, losses during month 93
July available beginning of month - 1,126, operational - 906, losses during month 124
August available beginning of month - 1,118, operational - 869, losses during month 168
September available beginning of month - 990, operational - 735, losses during month 229

July figures may include late returns from the Battle of France, Fighter Command Spitfire and Hurricane pilot losses, July to September are put at 84, 237, 264

FW-190 and The Battle of Britain

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