FW-190 D-9-13 vs. Ta-152 C

[riacrato]

No records of Ta-152 Cs ever flying a combat mission afaik
Several Fw 190 D-13s were in service with operational units, most notably the one that is still existing and almost flight-worthy. So it is likely they were used operationally a few times but I don't know if they ever made contact.

The Fw 190 C could've probably been operationally in early-to-mid 1943. In retrospective it would've been wise to start with that and ignore the more significant structural changes of the Ta 152 for the time being. I don't think speeding up Ta 152 development by more then a few months is realistic. It would've been too late for the critical phase over the Western Front in any case.

 

[Gixxerman]

I did read that Junkers specifically went after the Daimler Benz aero engine market with the 213 by making sure it's connection points etc were identical and thus the 213 was as usable in an airframe as a 603 (and, with ballast, a 605?).
The 213 603 weighed almost identical amounts so swapping one for the other would not be a big deal.

 

[mm-2]

I've read it the other way around, that the RLM wanted engine interchangability way back before the war. The DB engines were too scarce, and their production runs frought with delays and disruptions, meaning aircraft were built before the engines were.

The ability to swap out an engine in an airframe was seen as a benefit early on. You see this in pre-war Bf109s as well as He111s and other airframes as well. It was simply part of the design of the German war machine, rather than Junkers trying to steal DB's market share.


P.S. Didn't the Ta152H-1 first introduce wing tanks? I thought the C-1 had only fuselage tanks?

 

[davebender]

1936. RLM funds development of the DB603 engine.
1937. RLM cancels funding for the DB603 engine.
1937. RLM funds development of the Fw-190 fighter aircraft.

Dr. Tank preferred to power his new fighter aircraft with the DB603 V12. Cancellation of the DB603 engine program forced Focke Wulf to swith to the BMW139 radial engine. Cancellation of the BMW139 in favor of the yet to be developed BMW801 engine forced a second major redesign of the Fw-190. Each of these design changes delayed the Fw-190 program and added weight to what was originally a lightweight fighter aircraft.

IMO the Fw-190C could probably have been operational during early 1941. So could the Do-217M bomber. RLM caused great damage to both aircraft programs by cancelling development of the DB603 engine.

 

[Mosshorn]

IMO the Fw-190C could probably have been operational during early 1941.

Wow... Things in the East and West would have been VERY different with DB603-powered FW-190's flying around in early 1941. The BMW801-powered Fw-190's really didn't start showing up until early 1942 as it was.

Actually that kind of scary...

So based on that, in my opinion, the RLM enforced cancellation/delay of the DB-603 and Jumo-213 engine programs cost the Luftwaffe air superiority in both theatres and most likely: the war.

Moss

 

[davebender]

RLM enforced cancellation/delay of the DB-603 and Jumo-213 engine programs cost the Luftwaffe air superiority

I wouldn't go that far. The Me-109 was continually upgraded, keeping it competitive until the end of the war.

The Fw-190 had better endurance then the Me-109. The Do-217 had better endurance then the He-111. Which makes them better at projecting combat power over enemy airspace. Cancellation of the DB603 engine program cost Germany a chance to develop a long range bomber force.

 

[Shortround6]

1936. RLM funds development of the DB603 engine.
1937. RLM cancels funding for the DB603 engine.
1937. RLM funds development of the Fw-190 fighter aircraft.

Dr. Tank preferred to power his new fighter aircraft with the DB603 V12. Cancellation of the DB603 engine program forced Focke Wulf to swith to the BMW139 radial engine. Cancellation of the BMW139 in favor of the yet to be developed BMW801 engine forced a second major redesign of the Fw-190. Each of these design changes delayed the Fw-190 program and added weight to what was originally a lightweight fighter aircraft.

IMO the Fw-190C could probably have been operational during early 1941. So could the Do-217M bomber. RLM caused great damage to both aircraft programs by cancelling development of the DB603 engine.

There was little or no way the Fw-190 was going to be a light weight fighter with a DB 603 in it. Not with the weight of the DB 603, the weight of the radiators and the weight of the entire engine installation.

There is also no reason to suppose that had the DB 603 continued in development it would have achieved 1943 power levels in 1941. This assumes that the DB engineers learned nothing in the meantime from their development of the DB 601 and 605 engines that they applied to the 603 when they resumed development. Both planes might have been able to be in service in 1941 but it would be with a 1500-1600hp DB 603 and quite possibly a critical altitude of about 5000 meters.

 

[riacrato]

The DB603 was never cancelled. It was no longer funded by the RLM but development continued on private Daimler Benz funding.

How much non-interrupted govermental financial support would've pulled-in the development is of speculation.

As is, no Fw 190 C before 1943, as historical development shows. In 1941-1942 the difference to the historical BMW801-Fw 190s would've been marginal anyways.

 

[riacrato]

There was little or no way the Fw-190 was going to be a light weight fighter with a DB 603 in it. Not with the weight of the DB 603, the weight of the radiators and the weight of the entire engine installation.

Fw 190 C prototypes with annular radiatior and "normal" supercharger (no Hirth Turbo) were in the same weight class as the A version. Same goes for the Fw 190 D.

 

[davebender]

Autumn 1937.
RLM begins funding development of the Fw-190.

1938.
Cancellation of the DB603 engine program forces Dr. Tank to switch to the BMW139 radial engine.

1 June 1939.
Fw-190 prototype first flight. BMW139 engine.

Spring of 1940.
Fw-190 prototype first flight with BMW801 engine.
- BMW801 was longer and heavier then the BMW139 engine.
- Airframe strengthened.
- Cockpit moved further to the rear to improve engine cooling.
- Strengthened undercarriage with larger wheels to accomodate the additional weight.
- 635kg total weight gain.
- Larger wing to compensate for the weight gain.

Spring 1942.
Fw-190A3. First somewhat reliable version.


DB603 engine. 1,750 hp with B4 fueld. 1,900 hp with C3 fuel.
920kg dry weight.
7 sq ft engine frontal area.

BMW801 engine. 1,539hp with B4 fuel. 1,750hp with C3 fuel.
1,088kg dry weight.
14.7 sw ft engine frontal area.

Fw 190 C prototypes with annular radiatior and "normal" supercharger (no Hirth Turbo) were in the same weight class as the A version. Same goes for the Fw 190 D

The historical Fw-190C and Fw-190D were built using a modified Fw-190A airframe. So it's to be expected they would weight about the same.

But what if the Fw-190 airframe was designed for the DB603 engine from 1937 onward? Would the airframe still gain 635 kg during development? Would it take advantange of the slimmer engine to be a bit more aerodynamic? Would it have a prop mounted cannon from the beginning, eliminating any need for the two outer wing cannon positions? Would it have a bit more power while running on the same C3 fuel that the BMW801 engine required?

 

[Shortround6]

How much does the radiator and coolant for the 603 weigh? Even a Merlin or Allison went 300lbs (136kg) or so. Weight advantage for the 603 just disappeared.
In 1940-41 the 603 would be running RPM (work out the piston speed) of about 2400-2500rpm, about 100rpm behind the 601-605. It would also be running about the same boost. 1.3 Ata.

If you can have a 603 running at 2700rpm at 1.42 Ata in 1941 you might as well just claim you can have a 109G with a DB605A running in the spring of 1941

 

[davebender]

1941 DB601E engine. 34L. 1,350 HP. with B4 fuel.
1941 DB603 engine. 44.5L. Displacement is 31% larger.

I am under the impression a DB603 is essentially a larger version of the DB601. So why wouldn't a 1941 DB603 engine produce approximately 31% more power then a 1941 DB601 engine?

 

[wuzak]

Autumn 1937.
RLM begins funding development of the Fw-190.

1938.
Cancellation of the DB603 engine program forces Dr. Tank to switch to the BMW139 radial engine.

1 June 1939.
Fw-190 prototype first flight. BMW139 engine.

Spring of 1940.
Fw-190 prototype first flight with BMW801 engine.
- BMW801 was longer and heavier then the BMW139 engine.
- Airframe strengthened.
- Cockpit moved further to the rear to improve engine cooling.
- Strengthened undercarriage with larger wheels to accomodate the additional weight.
- 635kg total weight gain.
- Larger wing to compensate for the weight gain.

Spring 1942.
Fw-190A3. First somewhat reliable version.


DB603 engine. 1,750 hp with B4 fueld. 1,900 hp with C3 fuel.
920kg dry weight.
7 sq ft engine frontal area.

BMW801 engine. 1,539hp with B4 fuel. 1,750hp with C3 fuel.
1,088kg dry weight.
14.7 sw ft engine frontal area.



The historical Fw-190C and Fw-190D were built using a modified Fw-190A airframe. So it's to be expected they would weight about the same.

But what if the Fw-190 airframe was designed for the DB603 engine from 1937 onward? Would the airframe still gain 635 kg during development? Would it take advantange of the slimmer engine to be a bit more aerodynamic? Would it have a prop mounted cannon from the beginning, eliminating any need for the two outer wing cannon positions? Would it have a bit more power while running on the same C3 fuel that the BMW801 engine required?

The frontal area advantage of the DB603 would count for nothing if it were mounted with an annular radiator, as per Fw190D. Especially if it was QEC designed to fit on the same mountings as the BMW QEC.

 

[davebender]

frontal area advantage of the DB603 would count for nothing if it were mounted with an annular radiator

Did the original 1937 Fw-190 plans call for an annular radiator? I suspect a radiator arrangement similiar to the late 1930s Me-109 and He-100D1 is more likely.

 

[Shortround6]

1941 DB601E engine. 34L. 1,350 HP. with B4 fuel.
1941 DB603 engine. 44.5L. Displacement is 31% larger.

I am under the impression a DB603 is essentially a larger version of the DB601. So why wouldn't a 1941 DB603 engine produce approximately 31% more power then a 1941 DB601 engine?

A "when" in 1941 engine? Fall winter of 1941 or spring summer of 1941?
The 601E and 605 used much more radical camshafts than earlier engines, more advanced ignition timing and other developments ( see what I mean about early development of the 603 might not be able to take advantage of things learned in development of the 601?) The difference in idle performance was so pronounced that special low speed intake passages/manifolds had to be used.

See: Daimler-Benz

The 109 F was supposed to use the "E" series engine put delays with development of the "E" meant that the F-1 and F-2 were fitted with the "N" engine.

For your hypothetical you have to have DB either devote even more time to the 603 than they were and as much or more time than than they were on the 601E (which was running about a year late) or for them to concentrate on the 603.
Concentrating on the smaller engine and solving the problems on it then scaling up to the bigger engine seems more logical.

Having engines available in quantity for a fair portion of 1941 would mean it would be based on a earlier set of limitations. Consider that according to Kurfurst there were 499 "N" series engines in service as of Jan 1st, 1941 and just one Gruppe of 36 109s equipped with "N" engines in July of 1940 for an engine that went into production at the end of 1939.

Basing your 'early' 603 on and engine that doesn't show up in any numbers until the fall/winter of 1941 isn't going to change things in 1941 much.

 

[davebender]

I agree. Production of the DB603 would begin during early 1941. Daimler-Benz will require a year to work the bugs out of the production process and the newly introduced DB603 engine. At the same time Focke Wulf would be working kinks out of the Fw-190 assembly line and Dornier would be working kinks out of Do-217M production.

During 1942 Germany begins to reap the benefits from not cancelling DB603 engine funding during 1937 through 1939. DB603 powered Fw-190s and Do-217s would be in mass production. If enough DB603 engines are produced there might also be an early introduction of the Ju-88G.

DB603 powered Me-410 won't show up before January 1943 as they need to iron out airframe bugs. However Me-410 production might be greater as there should be an adequate supply of DB603 engines.

 

[DonL]

We have talked and raised this issue a time before in this thread:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/replace-me-109-me-155-a-20121.html


At the meantime I have done more research on the subject.
To my opinion you can't rise the DB 603 and it's development without a whole view of the RLM and their official advertisements from the year 1937/1938.
Besides the death of Wever and the discharge of Wimmer.

At 1937/1938 the main focus of the RLM changed to the Bomber B and the Heinkel 177 with a lot of consequences for the engine development of the aviation Industrie!

For the Bomber B and due the promises of Junkers with the Ju 288 the RLM wanted 2 or 3 steps in one step.
The official advertisement of the new engine was 2000-3000PS, that wasn't going with normal evolution steps of the existing engines or engine technology. So a lot of or the most development capacity was changed to the new over engines from Junkers with the Jumo 222 and DB with the DB 604X.

At the same time DB was also busy with the development of the DB 606 and all of it's problems.

The advance development of the existing engines or enginetechnology was culpable neglected from 1937/38 to 1941.

It is a matter of fact, that the Jumo 213 and the DB 603 were normal advance developments of the existing german enigine technology

Jumo 213: Jumo 210 --> derivate with a pantograph to Jumo 211 --> Jumo 213 directly derivate from the Jumo 211!

DB 603: DB 600 --> derivate with a pantograph to DB 603!

With an other main focus of the RLM at 1937/38 and an official advertisement of an 1500 PS engine with existing engine technologie at the same time there are more hindsights than not, that both engines (DB 603 and Jumo 213) were production ready a lot earlier then reality shows.
It's clear that earlier production engines hadn't shown the same performance output but both engine could be production ready at late 1941, if most development capacity would be on this "development" since 1937/38.

So the Bomber B and the He 177 had slow down the german high performance engine development significant.

Edit:
As I said in the other thread:
Sometimes it is better the bird in the hand than a pigeon on the roof

 

[davebender]

Bomber B and the He 177 had slow down the german high performance engine development significant.

I agree. RLM cancelled funding for the DB603 engine program during 1937. At the same time RLM authorized funding of the DB604 engine for the Bomber B program.

You don't need to cancel the Bomber A and Bomber B programs to have DB603 engines. Just inform Daimler-Benz they will not be developing a 24 cylinder engine for the Bomber B program. Instead RLM funding and Daimler-Benz engineers historically expended on the DB604 program would be employed to complete DB603 engine development during 1937 to 1940.

We cannot ignore engine production.
Summer 1940.
Genshagen engine plant reaches peak capacity of about 300 DB601 engines per month.

September 1940.
50 million RM expansion. New Genshagen goal of 800 V12 engines per month.

In this scenerio the 50 million RM Genshagen expansion would be for the production of 500 DB603 V12s. Genshagen production of DB601s / DB605s would remain at 300 engines per month.

Summer 1941.
120 million RM expansion. New Genshagen goal of 1,200 V12 engines per month.

In this scenerio RLM will allocate expansion money between DB605 production and DB603 production based on engine demand. That's difficult to predict as early availability of the DB603 engine will change quite a few aircraft programs. However I expect the DB605 powered Me-109 to remain in production because it was so inexpensive yet very effective.

Ostmark Engine Plant.
Jan 1941.
Decision to build a new 1,000 aircraft engine per month manufacturing complex.
.....265 million marks. Stage 1. 500 engines per month.
.....393 million marks. Stage 2. 1,000 engines per month.

25 July 1941.
Factory construction begins.

24 December 1941. Jumo222A engine program cancelled.
The Ostmark engine plant was being tooled to produce this engine. Instead it will be converted to produce DB603 engines. This delays Ostmark engine production for about one year.

March 1942.
Ostmark factory construction complete.

Mid 1943.
Ostmark factory finally begins producing DB603 engines.

August 1943.
Ostmark factory bombed. This further delayed production. Only 515 engines produced through the end of 1943.

April 1944.
Ostmark produces 365 engines. Getting close to the Stage 1 production goal of 500 engines per month. Production delays and enemy bombing prevented the Stage 2 expansion from being implemented.

In this scenerio....
Hmmm. DB603 engines are already being produced at Genshagen. So what happens to the Ostmark engine plant?

 

[Mosshorn]

It's remarkable how much industry, manufacturing, engineering, and manpower managment have to do with winning a modern war. (I'm not sure American politicians understand this point, as A LOT of our industry, manufacturing and engineering has been exported to China.)

Reading the posts above, I get the distinct impression that Germany lost World War II in 1937. They had to win it by the end of 1942 AND keep the United States out of the war or they didn't stand a chance of winning it.

Moss

 

[davebender]

To a large extent that is true. German military procurement decisions made during 1935 to 1938 determined how the war would be fought.

However German military leaders had no idea Britain and France would start a general European war during September 1939. The German Government told them such a war was unlikey until the mid 1940s. The Luftwaffe planned accordingly and IMO did a pretty good job. By 1944 both the Bomber A and Bomber B programs would probably have operational aircraft. These bombers would carry guided air to surface weapons. By 1945 the Luftwaffe would have reliable jet aircraft.