Erich
the old Sage
in reality most US fighter jocks did not know late war LW types in 45. Johnson is no exception, long nose Fw 190's were typed up in after action reports and in 99 % of the cases the guys were flying against Fw 190A-8 and A-9's
FW-290?
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
and a couple fins claimed they shot down 51s...which isnt entirely or absolutely impossible but highly improbable.
Erich
the old Sage
not really as there were at least 6 109 pilots in I./JG 300 and in the spring of 44 they could of easily engaged 51's even into the summer of 44
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i am not following you, here, erich...in finland? how does I./JG 300 relate to that? i will have to look it up (again) but top a Finish ace said in one of his encounters he shot down a 51 , but everything else i read dismisses this as actually being a yak. personally, i actually give more creedence to the pilots aircraft identification skills but have no proof. i believe another fin pilot also claims to have shot down or had a go around with a stang. its not impossible due to the shuttle missions in 1944 where 51s and 39s landed on russian "FRANTIC" bases. i know of one that crash landed and was left there. how repairable it was??? a total loss or collapsed gear...some where in between. when they left those bases..some ac may not have started and been abandoned...or the taken off and had to return to base due to problems...and abandoned. there was very limited repair abilities here if any. these are all possiblilties only..i have no proof save for the one crash landed 357th ac. the russian could have had a couple to play with and used them....we may never know?
Erich
the old Sage
at least 6 Finnish pilots served in the ranks of I./JG 302 at night and on day missions before the survivors went back to Finland and served against the Soviets. so with that there is a strong possibility that the high cover gruppe I./JG 302 with the Fin pilots may have encountered P-51B pilots over Germany. it was not JG 300 that I mentioned earlier. JG 302 was already based in part in Finland.
A-ok now ?
A-ok now ?
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
gotcha! i can see that but these reports were supposedly over Finland airspace. i am close to finding them...
ok got it. but first let me ask if the 6 fins were there fighting or primarily there to train? i remember a small amount were sent to germany after the war of continuation started. germany became more friendly to finland and started to share equipment and training. IIRC that is when they started getting 109s. that detachment was there to train and learn to teach the other fin pilots how to fly the 109.
the 51 encounters i remember came from this website which has an interview with finnish ace Ilmari Juutilainen.
the site is: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace012.htm
and here is the piece from the article:
MH: Another unusual plane on your victory list is the North American P-51 Mustang of which the Soviets received only 10. Could you describe your two encounters with the Mustangs?
Juutilainen: The only time we saw Mustangs was during the peak of the Soviet summer offensive of 1944. The Mustangs we met were older models, with Allison engines. On June 26 we had just been escorting Bristol Blenheim bombers and were returning over the front line when I saw a Mustang approaching me from my right side in a right turn with his belly toward me. I yanked the throttle to idle to let it slide past me. The Mustang pilot, however, recovered his turn and then saw me. He also pulled his throttle back, and I saw long flames backfiring from his exhaust pipes. He also kicked his rudder to slow down, but I was doing the same thing, and because I had started sooner than he, the Mustang slid right out in front of me. The Mustang pilot then went to full power and tried to shake me off his tail with a climbing turn. In so doing he made his last mistake and flew directly in front of my gunsight. I fired, and soon the Mustang was burning in the forest near Tammisuo. Two days later my section was returning from a reconnaissance mission and made the usual detour to have an aerial engagement before returning to base. Soon we saw an Il-2 formation coming toward us escorted by three Mustangs. One of them pulled left and the other two went into a dive. In a tight diving turn I went after the airplane that had broken left, firing short bursts to break the pilot's mental backbone. It worked, for he apparently got nervous and went into a dive. The pilot kicked his rudder, but much too rapidly, only causing the tail to waggle while his plane stayed rather comfortably in the middle of my sight. The target was at an altitude of about 150 feet when it caught fire and crashed into the tall pine trees.
this could be complete BS but the time frame does fit. the FRANTIC missions were all prior to this time frame.
ok got it. but first let me ask if the 6 fins were there fighting or primarily there to train? i remember a small amount were sent to germany after the war of continuation started. germany became more friendly to finland and started to share equipment and training. IIRC that is when they started getting 109s. that detachment was there to train and learn to teach the other fin pilots how to fly the 109.
the 51 encounters i remember came from this website which has an interview with finnish ace Ilmari Juutilainen.
the site is: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace012.htm
and here is the piece from the article:
MH: Another unusual plane on your victory list is the North American P-51 Mustang of which the Soviets received only 10. Could you describe your two encounters with the Mustangs?
Juutilainen: The only time we saw Mustangs was during the peak of the Soviet summer offensive of 1944. The Mustangs we met were older models, with Allison engines. On June 26 we had just been escorting Bristol Blenheim bombers and were returning over the front line when I saw a Mustang approaching me from my right side in a right turn with his belly toward me. I yanked the throttle to idle to let it slide past me. The Mustang pilot, however, recovered his turn and then saw me. He also pulled his throttle back, and I saw long flames backfiring from his exhaust pipes. He also kicked his rudder to slow down, but I was doing the same thing, and because I had started sooner than he, the Mustang slid right out in front of me. The Mustang pilot then went to full power and tried to shake me off his tail with a climbing turn. In so doing he made his last mistake and flew directly in front of my gunsight. I fired, and soon the Mustang was burning in the forest near Tammisuo. Two days later my section was returning from a reconnaissance mission and made the usual detour to have an aerial engagement before returning to base. Soon we saw an Il-2 formation coming toward us escorted by three Mustangs. One of them pulled left and the other two went into a dive. In a tight diving turn I went after the airplane that had broken left, firing short bursts to break the pilot's mental backbone. It worked, for he apparently got nervous and went into a dive. The pilot kicked his rudder, but much too rapidly, only causing the tail to waggle while his plane stayed rather comfortably in the middle of my sight. The target was at an altitude of about 150 feet when it caught fire and crashed into the tall pine trees.
this could be complete BS but the time frame does fit. the FRANTIC missions were all prior to this time frame.
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You have a source for that ?
There were a group (more than 6) that participated in night fighter training (Jun.- Sept. 1944) , but they did not take part of combat, AFAIK
This subject pops up at regular intervals in various forums, but shortly:
The Soviet OOB is now quite well known: Their bases, their equipment, their numbers. So at Finnish front (1944):
The Soviets had plenty of Yaks of various marks, La-5's, and P-39's. Small number of of P-40's and Hurricanes. But :
- No Spitfires
- No Mustangs of any kind
- No P-38's ( one of Juutilainen's claims)
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drgondog
Major
The 357th (Frantic II) did two escort missions for Russian bombers on August 7th and 8th, the latter mission was to Rumania and they continued on to Italy. They didn't get back to UK until 11th and 12th. I'll have to dig for any air to air losses on the 'supplemental' missions but don't recall any.
All ttoo possible but why wuould VVS place an unmaintainable ship on Ops? Particularly since the Mustang would be down the list in performance against LW at low to medium altitudes in contrast to Yak 3 or Laag 7's, etc.
Personally I wouldn't (and don't) believe any P-51B/D were used by Soviets until I see some proof from VVS records.
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
first off my apology for the typo...it wasnt 51s and 39sbut p 38s that were involved in shuttle missions. my fingers stick or i get vaporlock of the brain on occasion.
the one and only reference i have a of a 51 ( from the 357th) crash landing in russia ( and it said during Frantic V) is from here:
8th Air Force Fighter Group - Littlefriends.co.uk
it was G4-W from the 362nd sq ac# 43-6721 Lt. Howard Egeland's "Chicago Bound" .... Lost 8 Aug 1944 - crashlanded Russia during "Frantic V" - Lt. Egeland uninjured.
ok just found this :Russian P51's
Okay - as for the aircraft that landed / crashlanded behind Russian lines; here are some aircraft that are known to have ended up on Russian territory - I didn't include those where the pilot bailed out, i.e. where the aircraft was destroyed:
(Dates given DD/MM/YYYY)
44-13399 P-51D-5-NA 4th FG 335th FS WD-O, damaged 21.06.1944 during "Frantic" mission wit Lt. James W. Russell, Jr.; salvaged in Russia - date given as 04.07.1944 (left behind)
43-6721 P-51B-5-NA 357th FG 362nd FS G4-W; lost 08.08.1944 crashlanding; flown on shuttle mission "Frantic V" by 1/Lt. Howard B. Egeland; crashlanded in Russia (pilot ok)
44-14086 P-51D-10-NA 339th FG 505th FS "Angel of Mercy" 6N-D; lost 12.03.1945 with Lt. Richard C. O'Brien RET MACR #13417, crashlanding in Russia; personal a/c of Maj. Archie A. Tower
44-13440 P-51D-5-NA 325th FG 217th FS "Ball's Out II" 30, lost 14.03.1945 in forced landing in Russia, a/c assigned to and lost with Lt. Walter R. Hinton - a/c given as salvaged 02.09.1945 !
44-14314 P-51D-10-NA 355th FG 357th FS "Sexless Stella / One More Time" OS-L, lost 15.03.1945, MIA; a/c assigned to and lost with Lt. Jack H. Dressler - Evader via Russia
44-63183 P-51D-20-NA 78th FG 82nd FS "Cutie II" MX-Y, lost 17.03.1945; a/c assigned to and lost with Lt. Paul H. Stearns - EVD
44-15137 P-51D-15-NA 353rd FG 350th FS "Baby Duck" LH-R; lost 18.03.1945, MIA (Russian La-5's) a/c assigned to Capt. Herbert G. Kolb; a/c lost with 2/Lt. Garnet D. Page (RET) MACR #13414
44-72233 P-51D-20-NA 78th FG 82nd FS "Cutie" MX-D; lost 21.03.1945 MIA (flak) a/c assg. to/lost with Maj. Richard E. Conner - hit by flak at L?nnewitz; bellied-in behind Russian lines.
44-14852 P-51D-10-NA 78th FG 83rd FS "Lottie" HL-F, lost 26.03.1945 with Lt. Andrew R. Innocenzi, landing accident in Russia - reported as Reclaimed / reduced to components 19.11.1947 !
44-63512 P-51D-20-NA 325th FG 318th FS "ShuShu / Chuck O" 66; lost 02.04.1945, crashed Russia; a/c assigned to Maj. Norman Leroy McDonald
43-24784 P-51B-15-NA 325th FG 318th FS "Charlotte" A58, lost 02.04.1945; a/c assigned to and lost with 1/Lt. Henry E. Southern - MIA MACR #13642
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billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
In reguards to RSJ's report,
There's the possibility of a field mod, taking an inline engine and adding it to the 190 airframe.
It could've also been an Emil airframe with the later engine.
I'd find it hard to confuse a 190 with a 109 though.
There are other reports on that site that make note of 108s, or an aircraft similar but not quite a 109.
It wouldn't surprise me if mystery planes were flying around with parts from several aircraft.
Bill
There's the possibility of a field mod, taking an inline engine and adding it to the 190 airframe.
It could've also been an Emil airframe with the later engine.
I'd find it hard to confuse a 190 with a 109 though.
There are other reports on that site that make note of 108s, or an aircraft similar but not quite a 109.
It wouldn't surprise me if mystery planes were flying around with parts from several aircraft.
Bill
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
you sure about that???
i said it wasnt entirely impossible that the russians used them...but very highly improbable. there is no proof. there are no records. the wreck of what he shot down is still in the finnish mountains...probably a yak. but this is an A model with an allison engine...just like Juutlainen said he saw. who knows?????
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That would surprise me very much.
Nowotny262
Recruit
- 3
- Mar 3, 2019
Johnsons saw the very rare Fiat G55 Centauro wich saw service in small numbers with the Luftwaffe
I doubt that is what he saw. The German acquired 3 G55's. 2 of them never left Italy, and only one arrived in Germany. Johnson claimed he saw 2, and if thats the case these certainly were not it. Besides the G55 does not look remotely close.
None of the 3 G55 acquired, saw service anyhow. All three were used for testing.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Fiat was only test flown by the Luftwaffe and by late '44, was retired from service by the ANR in favor of Bf109s.
The few photos of the five G.55 that exist with Luftwaffe markings do not have stammkennzeiche applied, meaning it never got beyond testing at Rechlin.
The five Luftwaffe G.55s were:
M.M.91064
M.M.91065
M.M.91066
M.M.91067
M.M.91068
Nowotny262
Recruit
- 3
- Mar 3, 2019
fubar57
General
Other than this site, I can't seem to find any other mention of an Fw 290 on the web
fubar57
General
From the Robert S. Johnson book also listing Martin "I Only Stick to the Facts" Caidin as co-authur....
