German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska

An excerpt from Unknown Waters by Alfred S. McLaren, Captain,
USN (Retired), 2008:

""Seasoned German Arctic U-boat veterans, including Hans-Gunther Lange of U-711, who made the longest uninterrupted patrol in the Kara and "West Siberian" seas
from 22 July to 30 September 1943, were a confident lot. They considered that
'a submarine is never helpless in the ice because it can submerge, proceed under
the ice. select an open area with the aid of its high-angle periscope, come to
the surface, recharge the battery with the diesels, and submerge again.' They also observed that 'the sea is always calm in the drift ice even if a gale is blowing' and that 'there are always clear lanes in the drift ice which permits
boats to proceed.' "

Soren
problem was that around Cape Chelyuskin there were usually permanent sea ice and then often also area between New Siberian Island and Wrangel Is.
You don't happily dive under permanent sea ice in early 40s boat if you didn't have info were the next open area was. One can navigate around floating ice but a normal ship or U-boat needed a ice-breaker to help them through permanent sea ice. That's why Soviet submarines which travelled through NW Passage during the war had ice-breaker support even if they could obtain info on ice-situation from coastal stations. During the summer 42 CCCP transferred a flotilla leader and 3 DDs from Pacific to Kola, ships departed from 15 July and arrived Kola Fjord on 14 Oct and needed to be accompanied by an ice-breaker. And those modern subs that operated in Arctic are designed on that your Type IX or whatever wasn't, so if trapped under ice you probably stayed there. Try do find out something on Komet's passage in 1940.

Juha

Hey lets leave the question of U-boats and transport for the minute, and look at some of the objectives, assets strategies for something that would have the potential to change the war.



{Ok so I will begin with my manifesto:}

I have taken the point of view of a British/American planner making strategic analysis, and trying to predict/foresee what the WORST CASE SCENARIO for the Allies. There is no benefit in hoping your enemy will fail to use the most effective strategy, one must always assume that he will.

I should also have a Disclaimer #1, the possible Axis plans assume that there are NO restrictions on any moral, humanitarian or humanitarian grounds.

Do not assume that I advocate these methods, including assassination worse, only that they could have been used by the Axis.

Also disclaimer #2 I posted these as an analysis of what the best Axis strategy would be from a planning point of view, if the plans were compromised by Canaris, of course this could ruin everything. Soren believes that he would not, we have really no way to determine this so I would just leave it as a wild card


I have re-printed my earlier post about the objective of the campaign, as a starting point.

freebird said:

Both German Japanese military leaders identify that the best way to defeat the Allies is to strangle the shipping, and that some basic joint planning is needed. {we have gone into that in another thread}. The SOE offensive will assist in this effort

After the Imperial Japanese conference at the beginning of July, it is decided to go to war with the USA, if Japan cannot obtain oil resources from the Dutch East Indies. At this point Japan informes Germany of its intention to go to war in the beginning of Nov if negotiations fail, and askes if Germany will join in attacks against the US. Japan does not tell Germany about the planned attack on Pearl Harbour, nor of the exact date.

Germany promises to begin U-boat operations against the USA, and to plan prepare SOE {commando, "black ops" political manipulations etc.}

Germany will have to wait for the news of the Japanese attack against the USA to begin, otherwise they risk fighting the US alone if Japan changes it's mind.

There is no big danger of the intelligence leaking out, as the planned entry of Japan into the war is not something that would be sent out over Enigma to U-boats or to Generals in Europe. If the British detect more U-boats heading towards the US, it would be assumed that they are moving to begin attacks in Canadian or British Caribbean waters.

In any event, it was no secret that tensions with Japan are increasing, and both UK US expected attacks against their colonies in the Far East. The information that hostilities against US posts would shortly begin would be given to U-boat officers only, not broadcast. If some of the information does leak out, it is unlikely to affect US preparations, as the US is already worring about German moves into Brazil {which had a Fascist government in 1941, along with Argentina Bolivia}. Also there are enough in the US who would suspect this information is a British ploy to bring the US into the war.


The SOE attacks against the US should begin the day after Pearl Harbour, at the same time as the U-boat offensive begins.

The aims of the Commando offensive are:

1.) To influence public opinion in the USA

2.) To decieve the US about actual Axis war plans, and to divert US forces to theaters where they will not be effective, which lessens the amount sent to where they are really needed.

3.) To provide a "distraction" from the U-boat offensive, which is the main danger, but not as "headline grabbing" as commando attacks

4.) To provide US planners intelligence with some "busy work", if your enemy is busy trying to anticipate your plans, they have less time to make plans of there own.

5.) To stir up divisions in the Allied government military command

6.) To provoke tensions in the western hemisphere, a major worry of the USA in 1940 - 1942

Click to expand...

syscom3 said:

I take fault with only one item.

Nearly all of the US Divisions wouldnt be diverted in any menaingfull way, as they were bound to stay in the US throughout 1942 as there wasnt any shipping capability to support them.

Click to expand...

BTW Soren
St Lawrence Bay is 50deg North and we are talking areas some 75deg North, that is a big difference.

Juha

there is sometimes some ice in Kiel Bay (54 deg N) but to think that situation there gives a good idea on situation off Oulu, 65deg N, is misleading. Even 11 deg northward makes a big difference in Baltic.

Using my above objectives as a starting point, the best method to achieve them is to use the isolationist movement in the USA, their paranoia about "hemisphere defence" and the explosive situation in Mexico to forment some very grave trouble for the US.

By having to deal with an unstable situation close to home, the US will have less troops available for "Bolero" and interfere with the preparations for "Torch". Additionaly it will be very hard to convince the US public to get involved in "foreign entanglements" {ie a European war} when the US has been attacked by Japan, and there is an explosive situation south of the border.

In 1941 Mexico is a real tinderbox waiting for a spark to set it off. The elections of 1940 were disputed, and probably rigged. The losing candidate Almazan was right-wing and had the backing of the army, in fack a large number of his supporters started some armed conflict to protest the results.

There was also some considerable friction between Mexico and both the US UK, due to former President Cardenas expropriating the oilfields owned by British American companies in 1938. The man who supposedly won the election in 1940 was Camacho, a protege of Cardenas.

The Axis also already have tens thousands of agents/operatives/supporters in Latin America in the "Synarchist" movement, which has been pushed by Franco Mussolini.

Freebird
Quote: "There is no big danger of the intelligence leaking out"

There may well be, the messages of Japan's Berlin ambassor were a big help to Allied intelligence, bacause they were able to read them. I cannot recall when they crack the Japanese diplomatic code but because they were able to read the instructions to Japanese embassy in Washington prior 7.12.41 odds are that they were able to read the messages in mid-41.

Juha

Juha are you reading the excerpts with comments by actual Uboat commanders?? Want more ?:

"As we surveyed the [Vilkitsky] Strait's eastern approaches at periscope depth throughout 11 August [1970] and into the early morning hours of 12 August, I
recounted to those on watch some of the hair-raising exploits of the brave German
submariners who had operated in these waters some twenty-five years earlier.
During an exceptionally mild-ice summer, three Type VIIC U-boats, U-302 (Sickel),
U-354 (Herbschleb), and U-711 (Lange) of Group Viking of the 13th U-boat Flotilla, based at Trondheim, Norway, on patrol in theKara Sea during late August
1943 trailed a Soviet convoy into the Vilkitsky Strait. U-301 and U-354 sub-
sequently sank one ship each of the small convoy. A month later,U-302, U-354, and U-601 (Grau) of this same group returned to patrol the western entrance of
these straits in hopes of intercepting another convoy. During the following
summer of a much less favorable ice year, three more Type VIIC U-boats of Group
Gryphon of the 13th Flotilla, U-711 (Lange), U-739 (Mangold), and U-957 (Schaar),
succeeded in reaching Cape Chelyuskin on 18 September 1944 while attempting to
reach an assembly point for Soviet coastal convoys at Nordwik Bight to the east
of Chelyuskin. Only heavy drift ice prevented them from going farther.

Soren
Quote:
"succeeded in reaching Cape Chelyuskin on 18 September 1944 while attempting to
reach an assembly point for Soviet coastal convoys at Nordwik Bight to the east
of Chelyuskin. Only heavy drift ice prevented them from going farther"

So much reaching Bering via NW Passage

Juha

Read: succeeded in reaching Cape Chelyuskin on 18 September 1944

They were trying to reach Nordwik Bight, in LATE SEPTEMBER!

Also did you get this:
"Seasoned German Arctic U-boat veterans, including Hans-Gunther Lange of U-711, who made the longest uninterrupted patrol in the Kara and "West Siberian" seas
from 22 July to 30 September 1943"

So much for your theory that reaching the Bering strait sea was impossible as the German Uboats actually operated in the worst section of the proposed route!

Soren I believe the point that Juha is trying to point out, is that you are using examples from U-Boot commanders who operated in a more southern region.

He is pointing out that farther north there is permanent ice coverage and no drift ice to navigate through.

Just my observation. You are both talking right past each other...

Before we go any further, let me introduce another sneaky tactic that should be used by Germany Total denial of involvement Nazi Germany does not admit to any involvement with the attacks on the USA, and does not declare war. This will seriously hamper Roosevelt's attempt to get the public behind the war effort against Germany, and will keep the "isolationists" more relevant.

1.) The true scale of U-boat sinkings were not ever admitted to the US public, so the few incedents that are known will be blamed on the British, who will be accused of trying to drag the US into a European war.

2.) the events in Mexico are the result of "Mexican agitation" for "Reconquista", and in the event that any German operatives are caught, as a last resort this will be passed off as Franco's meddling. The German veterans of the "Condor" legion will be very helpful as they mostly speak Spanish quite well.

3.) The instability in Mexico can also partly be blamed on the British operatives, who have very good reason to be hostile to the new President, and his statement that he will continue Cardenas policy of nationalizing Mexican oil, without much compensation to the British or USA

4.) The Japanese might be miffed that they will get the full force of the US anger, but after Pearl Harbour there is not much that they can do about it.



I think the first move in the campaign will be to assassinate the new President Camacho, which will be blamed on agents of British American oil companies.

The second assassination will be of the loser of the election Almazas, who was less inclined to support armed conflict by his supporters. This will be blamed on the US government attempting to stifle Mexican nationalism.



This campaign of inciting instability in Latin America also depend on manipulating public opinion in both the USA in Mexico, so inj the few months before the war German "Bund" sympathisers in the US and "Synarchist" supporters in Mexico will gain control or access to some key newspaper radio media in both countries. Remember that as the action heats up it will be easier to "feed" stories to the media, who are desparate to get a hot story printed before their competition "scoops" them.



Some links with information about Mexico the "Synarchists", and ""Hemisphere defence"


Nazi instigated synarchist plots

The Nazi-Instigated National Synarchist Union of Mexico

Mexico between Hitler Roosevelt - review

H-Net Review: David R. Buck <dbuck2@@wvu.edu> on Mexico Between Hitler and Roosevelt: Mexican Foreign Relations in the Age of Lazaro Cardenas, 1934-1940


hemisphere defence

HyperWar: US Army in WWII: Guarding the United States [Chapter 1]

Mexico - Dec 7 41

Sunday, July 7, 1940

WWII mexico

Mexico - Forgotten World War II Ally - BY SHEP LENCHEK - IN MEXICO CONNECT

Take a peak at this map Juha:


Do you know where the Vilkitsky Strait is located ??? Right smack in the middle of the worst section of the proposed route, right where the most compacted icepacks are situated!

Yet: three Type VIIC U-boats, U-302 (Sickel),
U-354 (Herbschleb), and U-711 (Lange) of Group Viking of the 13th U-boat Flotilla, based at Trondheim, Norway, on patrol in theKara Sea during late August
1943 trailed a Soviet convoy into the Vilkitsky Strait.

If they can operate and run patrols in Vilkitsky then they can pass it as-well, reaching the Laptev sea from which point on there will be much less in the way of icepacks!

Juha said:

Freebird
Quote: "There is no big danger of the intelligence leaking out"

There may well be, the messages of Japan's Berlin ambassor were a big help to Allied intelligence, bacause they were able to read them. I cannot recall when they crack the Japanese diplomatic code but because they were able to read the instructions to Japanese embassy in Washington prior 7.12.41 odds are that they were able to read the messages in mid-41.

Juha

Click to expand...

What I meant was that if the Allies do get some intelligence and do believe it, it won't help them much anyways.

Both the Allies and the Nazis already knew that the Japanese were gearing up for war, they just didn't know about Pearl Harbour, the information didn't help very much at Pearl Harbour.

The Allies also knew that German U-boats were on the way to the US east coast before "Drumbeat", but this didn't help them at all either.

The Allies also knew to some extent about the "Synarchist" movement, but there is less danger of Enigma decoding because they would not be sending "black ops" instructions to the machine in the Mexico city embassy, these orders would all be given by hand to the operatives. If some of the teams are taken over by U-boat, Berlin will not be sending detailed "black ops" instructions to the U-boat. Anyways I agree with Parsifal others that cargo ship is a better means of transport than wasting U-boats.

Anyways I agree with Parsifal others that cargo ship is a better means of transport than wasting U-boats.

Click to expand...

But how do you get your men and all their equipment aboard the cargo ship, let alone off the ship and through the dock inspectors in Anchorage ?

Soren said:

But how do you get your men and all their equipment aboard the cargo ship, let alone off the ship and through the dock inspectors in Anchorage ?

Click to expand...

Easy they get off of there ass's and walk onto the ship while carrying there equipment...

How do they get off?

Why do they have to get past dock inspectors? Do you think an U-Boot is going to pull right up to the dock in Anchorage, and the men are just going to get off and walk onto the dock followed by the cheers of the liberated Anchoraginians?

Somewhere off of the coast they get into little rubber rafts and go to the shore under darkness. Just like they would with an U-Boot.

I agree transport ships are much more better suited than a small ass U-Boot.

Soren
to my knowledge U-boats never went through Vilkitsky, even when they were ordered to do so, in 44. Sept. was probably best time to try in that year or KM was incompetent.
And the more eastern area between New Siberian Is and Wrangler Is was worst stretch in 40 for Komet IIRC. 1942 it was area around Cape Chelyuskin that was worst ice-wise.

So to my understanding no U-boat ever got into Laptev Sea, correct me if I'm wrong. To get at one end of icebound straight isn't same than be able to travel through it. For example if one gets to Harmaja (lighthouse and pilot station off Helsinki) in normal winter doesn't mean that one necessarily is able to sail to Helsinki without help.

Juha

Soren said:

But how do you get your men and all their equipment aboard the cargo ship, let alone off the ship and through the dock inspectors in Anchorage ?

Click to expand...

First off I wouldn't have Alaska on my list of targets, there really is no benefit to it.

There is no reason to go to Alaska (oops I'm going to get it from Der Adler! }

In 1941 Alaska has no connection to the rest of North America, only by ship. There is no oil or vital resource there {in 1941} and is considered so far away remote that news of an attack would not make much of an impression, unlike attacks on Texas California.

The US was not that put out when Japan siezed parts of Alaska, they didn't panic, they just waited them out. The location is so cold and remote that keeping your team supplied and fed in Alaska will be brutal {remember the winter there is as cold as it was at "Stalingrad".

The benefit of thr Latin American strategy I proposed is that cargo ships could have some cover that they are headed to Martinique or Mexico if stopped by the British. {as mentioned in earlier post.}


Ultimately Soren, assuming that the U-boat can get under the ice, and that you could fit 25 commandos on board, what would it accomplish? You would lose that very scarce Type IX U-boat for a couple of month round trip {minimum}, and if you are thinking July/August 1942 it is way too late to alter the course of the war, in an area that the US is not that concerned about, because they know that it is just an isolated attack.

The Commando attacks should be immediately after Pearl Harbour, and designed to cause the maximum panic and anxiety in Washington London

Errr Adler, IIRC the plan was to board an Allied cargo ship with some crates labelled with all kinds of spanish sh*t containing the equipment, and then when Anchorage was reached they'd drive it off the boat. I see problems there.

As to your plan, are you proposing a German cargo ship on its own travelling the northen route to drop off the commandos just outside Anchorage ??

Freebird
Quote: "The Allies also knew to some extent about the "Synarchist" movement, but there is less danger of Enigma decoding because they would not be sending "black ops" instructions to the machine in the Mexico city embassy, these orders would all be given by hand to the operatives."

Bit farfetshed, Germans had almost absolute trust on Enigma, so they would have used it. On the other hand I cannot recall the system Abwehr used, so I cannot state that as a fact and anyway not all Enigma systems were solved in late 41. So IMHO right thing to do is to assume that Germans used their normal system for sending black ops instructions.

Juha

Soren said:

But how do you get your men and all their equipment aboard the cargo ship, let alone off the ship and through the dock inspectors in Anchorage ?

Click to expand...

As I have just posted, i think an attack on Alaska would be pointless, considering the cost.

However if you were absolutely intent on getting there, I would think the best cover would be of a Russian or Norwiegan whaling ship, putting into Alaska for supplies. Some old fishing boat aquired in Mexico or South America could be disguised as a whaling sloop. {Russia has ships in the Bering Sea, Norway had ships operating in the Antarctic, until the raiders showed up there}