Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids

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RG_Lunatic said:
All I can tell you is that most German's whome I've spoken with, who are post-WWII generation, know little of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.
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Our experiences with German citizens obviously differ. I'd hate to think that German schools have stopped the practice of educating the young on this subject, but in light of the politically correct age we've entered I suppose I really shouldn't be too surprised if they did.

RG_Lunatic said:
Just because the camps are there does not mean they are visited by most Germans.
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Perhaps you're right, I don't really know. They are a mandatory part of German military training, but their existence and original purpose should be made clear to everyone.
 
You can not argue with RG_Lunatic. He is always right. Yeah right he just thinks he is always right. As for the German people RG what could they have done? Tell me. They could not stop Hitler from coming to power and at the time he came to power they would not have wanted to he made them feel like they were part of a greater power. As for the concentration camps again I say most Germans did not know about them. They did not know they were being killed. But ofcourse RG I know that I am wrong because you say that I am and because of the fact that I am also a German citizen I am denying the past of my country. That is whay you said in other threads that the German people do. And I know that us Germans and the rest of the world owe you everything. Maybe I should just give up my German citizenship because they way you sound in a lot of these threads it is a shame. Anyways I give up trying to reason with you because you only want to be heard.
 
Every nation has had its dark period in its time, but the thing that counts is when a nation transforms itself into a nation that respects other nations and other people and does something for the world. You can not condemn a nation for its past. No one looks down on the US for the slavery or the taking of indian lands and massacreing them, no one looks down on England for they ways they handeld there problems with Scottland and Ireland. And both of them are great nations.
 
Medvedya said:
Well, your country hasn't done anything nasty - as far as I know...
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Everyone knows we're perfect!

Not hardly we ain't!
The early history of Canada is not very much unlike that of the United States. The displacement and even slaughter of entire native communities occured just as often. We too had slavery, but it was abolished a little earlier than in the U.S.

Perhaps the biggest difference was the fact that we remained under British rule for alot longer.

Racism in Canada is just as prevalent as elsewhere, and our internment of ethnic Japanese during WWII was no different than in the U.S. Even second and third generation Canadians, who happened to be of Japanese descent.

I wish many more people in this country would accept these and many other things, but you'd be amazed at the number of people who don't. Only then can we look at ourselves realistically!



Oh, and Terrance and Phillip escaped the mob.
Didn't you hear? Farting saved Canada!
 

Watch the Shoah documentary, then reply m8. Until you do, you're argument about the German people's innocence in this matter is based upon denial and self-deception. Just watch the documentary please. You can order it for about $10-30 or so on ebay. Watch the interviews and you will see for yourself.

You are taking this too personally m8. Yes it is something to be ashamed of, but only for the actions of an eariler generation. Almost every nation, including the USA, has such issues in its past which it should feel shame over. That is not a reason not to know about that history, or justification to deny it happened.

I feel that every American student should be taught about the slavery period of our history, and about the post-slavery civil rights abuses of black Americans. They should be taught about the deplorable treatment of the American indians, especially the butchering of women and children and the violations of treaty after treaty that occured. They should be taught about the abuses of hispanic Americans in the SW, both during the depression and after WWII. They should be taught about the slaughter during the Spanish American war, which appears to have been contrived, and about the killing of at least 40,000 Filapinos in taking that posession from the Spanish. These are shameful aspects of our history but every American should understand the truth of what did happen.

As for "owing the USA". Yes, I think the Germans and the French both owe the USA for its generosity to both nations in the post WWII period. I'm not saying they should repay the debts which were willingly forgiven (billions of 1950's $), but they should not stand against us in our war on terror, especially not over financial deals involving fraudulent use of the Oil for Food program. That's just my personal feeling on the issue, why does my personal feeling upset you so much?

=S=

Lunatic
 
Look, this is going around in circles. What I've learnt, by speaking to a few people who were around at the time, is that the Holocaust didn't immediately start off with Crystalnacht and the Wannsee Conference, things like that don't. It was an insidious creep towards such things, and when you're there on the spot, it's not something which is apparent. Granted, people did know that something was going on, but usually by something as mundane as the tailor disappearing.

Besides, in times like those, asking too many questions can get a person killed. Far better to accept the nebulous explanation that the tailor has 'gone to the East.' After all, what else could someone accept? Why would someone even want to start chipping away at things which didn't concern them? How can you blame people for simply wanting to get on with their lives as best as they can? Both before and after the war, when the whole ghastliness of it all came to light.

Granted, you know a lot about history, but your ability to empathise with people leaves a lot to be desired. I and most others here can see Adler's annoyance in some of the things you write. He knows about the Holocaust, he agrees that it was a terrible thing, what more do you want him to do? He wasn't even born then! He's stuck out in a total armpit of a country, trying very hard not to get his head shot off, and he just wants to write posts in his spare time on historic weapons, equipment, and aircraft with a bit of non-contentious history thrown in. Instead, he has to justify himself and his nation today to some random guy nice and safe at home about something that was over 60 years ago.

I hate getting gnarly like this, it's not me at all, but this is getting really over the top.
 
CC I don't think that you were there t say this!
Anyway as a observer yes you're right! It was bigger, worse longer and more exciting than the first one.
I still can't believe that I'm talking like this about a war...
 

No, I was not there at the time. But I have relatives who were. On the Jewish side of my family, I can document at least 30 adults (and there were certainly more) who were killed, and only one survivor, and at least as many children were lost (we don't know much about them). On the non-Jewish side, I have spoken to half a dozen who stood by and did nothing, and know of at least 3 who actively participated in the horror. Also, the American and British (Tovey) sides of my family paid heavily in both WWI and WWII. All because the German's thought they were better than everyone else. All because of German pride.

Adler seems to think he's the only one who has any German blood in his viens. But the fact is he only apparently has one side of this conflict flowing, and he is standing up for them when they do not deserve to be stood up for.

You make it sound like the apprehension of the Jews was a subtle thing. It was not, it was done in broad daylight and it started very early on. There were pleanty of opportunities for the German public, especially the church, to stand up and protest what was happening. But they chose not to because what was happening was bad for the Jews, but it was good for them. Sure as things progressed it got harder and harder to stand up against it - but that is the way these things always work. The price of not having stood up early is that it is harder to stand up later. The price of not standing up at all is you must live with shame, and your descendants must live with it.

=S=

Lunatic
 

I agree. The only place where we differ is that I think it is important to remember these things for what they were. It is important to remember the bad as well as the good. When we forget the bad, we tend to repeat it.

=S=

Lunatic
 
basically, despite having differing opinions, i think we all would come to the same conclusions - that we should all just respect eachother and the grass is never greener on the other side.
all religions carry the same message of 'do not harm unto others' and if most of the people that are in all the armies around the world are religious and the leaders, etc, then they should either obey this call from their gods goddesses or shame themselves and renounce their religion and leave the army/position in the world to become civvies that you wouldnt cross the road to spit on, as most of us in the world are now treated. there is just no respect anymore.the germans and english, despite the fact that they were bitter enemies to the death, respected eachothers courage because they knew that like them, they were carrying out orders. war veterans were respected, not sworn at by snotty-nosed teenagers on street corners, because of what they did for our country and although i understand and sympathise with BOTH sides, we would be MUCH MUCH worse off if Hitler had taken over. WE NEED RESPECT - and not just us - every country in the world. how will we become higher, more intelligent beings if we cannot master this most basic thing amongst ourselves?war shows us all up for what we really are and it exposes everyones true character - we should learn from this. feel free to post private messages to me.
 
Unfortunately, I don't believe the Koran (Q'ran, or however you think it should be spelled in English) is in fact a religion that preaches peace. Parts of it do, but parts of it clearly do not. That is the problem we are facing in fighting islamo-fascism, it is just too easy for them to focus on the parts that either blatently or implicity advocate "death to the infidel".

Please keep in mind that most translations of the Koran have been westernized and the parts that advocate violence against non-believers have been tamed down tremendously.

=S=

Lunatic
 
"Adler seems to think he's the only one who has any German blood in his viens. But the fact is he only apparently has one side of this conflict flowing, and he is standing up for them when they do not deserve to be stood up for."

Okay first of all, I am not standing up for the Nazis. I am standing up for the German people. Some one has to because you think to seem they are all Nazi's. I am not trying to downplay any role that any German made in WW2 and I am certainly not denying anything. I have personally visited the concentration camps of Dachau and Auschwitz. They are a very horrowing experience and they show the atrocities that were made. So I am deffinatly not denying history. As for you family in World War 2 that lost there lives in concentration camps I am deeply sorry for that, there is no excuse for what happened to them, but do I blame the German people for that? No. I blame Hitler and his hatred. I too lost many family members in World War 2 that were German and they too were good people who fought for there country like anyone else would have done. As for Germany not standing with the US on the War against terror, get your facts straight. German soldiers are in Afganistan, Djibouti, and Somalia. They did not agree with Iraq but hello news flash. The War in Iraq is not part of the war on terror. It was even being planned in February of 2000 and earlier. Long before Sept. 11th. So please get your facts straight. And as was just said this discussion can go on and on forever and I dont care to argue with you anymore because you will never see my point of view. I understand your point of view and happen not to agree with it in my opinion and that is my right as a free person. If you dont like that TOUGH!
 
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