Germany's Doomed Plan: Operation Bodenplatte and the Battle of Y-29. Thoughts?

[MikeGazdik]

It was a waste of planes and pilots. Now, if somehow they could have sent all of those fighters across the Channel and hit only the 4 engined bomber bases, it may have had more of an affect maybe. But it was too little, too late regardless. You cannot win a war, while only in a defensive posture. And since around 43 or so, the Luftwaffe was primarily defensive. (in the West)

 

[Njaco]

It was a waste of planes and pilots. Now, if somehow they could have sent all of those fighters across the Channel and hit only the 4 engined bomber bases, it may have had more of an affect maybe. But it was too little, too late regardless. You cannot win a war, while only in a defensive posture. And since around 43 or so, the Luftwaffe was primarily defensive. (in the West)

or Galland's Big Blow. How would that have been if Galland was able to use those machines the way he wanted to?

 

[Njaco]

I can see this is starting to get heated, so I will say again - move the Spitvs109 conversation to the appropriate thread. I know threads wander but this is far off topic.

 

[Erich]

Njaco has given final warning and ANY more proceeding and this thread starting up as quite interesting will be shut down, members will be personally warned in the upcoming year to stay on topic during 2012, this crap stops today..........................

VERSTEHEN SIE ?

V/R E ~

 

[Erich]

jabber what the H** you understand English obviously and you went ahead and answered on OT .......................

 

[Kryten]

Other than Y29, were there any other major engagements during Bodenplatte?

 

[Njaco]

Enough is enough!

All posts relating to the Spitfire have been moved to here....

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...09-i-have-found-these-links-net-29431-30.html

If you want to continue the discussion, I suggest you spend your time on that thread. One more post about the Spitfire not within the context of this thread will bring a 30 day vacation.

No more warnings.

 

[Matt308]

Well. Pretty much sums that up.

Carry on.

 

[pbfoot]

wasn't 2 TAF more of a target then the USAAF

 

[Njaco]

I think they got the brunt of it Neil.

This is something I put together about 10 years ago from various sources - I can't remember which. Some stuff you may recognize but I make no claim to being the author. This is the part about Y-29.

JG 11 went after the 2nd TAF airfield at Asch in Belgium, operational base for four Spitfire-squadrons. The attack on the Asch airbase, known as Y-29, was a total disaster. When JG 11 reached Y-29 they found eight Thunderbolts of the 390th Fighter Squad, 366 Fighter Group circling the field and twelve Mustangs of the 487th Fighter Squad, 352nd Fighter Group just taking off.

The Luftwaffe units assigned to attack Asch in Belgium were the I, II, and III Gruppen of JG 11, commanded by Oberstleutnant Gunther Specht, Kommodore of the Geschwader. The three Gruppen of JG 11 were stationed at Darmstadt-Griesheim, Gross-Ostheim and Zellhausen all southwest of Frankfort. Sixty-five Fw 190's and Bf 109's of the three Gruppen of JG 11 took off from their respective bases just before 08:30 hours and formed up over Aschaffenburg, joining with two Ju 188 pathfinders and headed for Asch. Radio silence and low altitude were the order of the day. So secret was Unternehmen Bodenplatte that the Germans own ground forces were not notified of the large formations of German fighters that would be flying overhead. This resulted in at least one casualty for JG 11 as they were assaulted by friendly fire on their way to Asch.

On December 31st 1945, the 352nd had received its orders for the 1st day of the New Year. They were to provide escort for 8th Air Force Bombers on a mission to bomb targets near Berlin. The 366th also had received their orders for the New Year. The 391st was to leave early in the morning to attack German armor at Ondenval. Two flights of the 390th were also scheduled to take off slightly later in the morning with the same objective. Thus it was that eight P 47's of the 366th would be circling over Asch, and twelve P 51's of the 487th would be on the flight line as the Luftwaffe approached.

As JG 11 approached Asch, the eight P 47's of the 390th were just forming up over Asch to head out over the Ardennes in search of German armor. As the 390th finished forming up they spotted flak bursts over the Ophoven field. At this same moment Lt Col. John Meyer was just beginning to roll down the runway. Heading for Ophoven to investigate, the 390th was surprised to see a large formation of Fw 190's and Bf 109's approaching Asch from the northeast at 1500 ft. The eight P 47's of the 390th jettisoned their bombs and external tanks and attacked, breaking up the formation. This turned out to be a key blow to the JG 11, without which the mustangs of the 487th may not have so easily taken to the air. The 390th claimed seven German aircraft in this attack taking a loss of only one.

Meanwhile Meyer was lifting off with the rest of the 487th behind him. As he rose from the runway he found himself faced with the oncoming JG 11. With a full load of fuel in his fuselage tank, making low altitude maneuvering difficult, and gear still retracting he fired at an oncoming Fw 190 scoring hits and sending the German aircraft crashing into the field. Meyer went on to claim a second Fw 190 before the battle was over.

The battle over Asch went on for 30 minutes. Eleven pilots of the 487th claimed twenty-three victories while sustaining no losses, and just three aircraft damaged in the air. Among those killed or missing from JG 11 were Lt. Alwin Doppler of 2./JG 11, Ofw. Franz Meindl of 8./JG 11, Major Günther Specht of Stab./JG 11 and Alfred Mannchen. JG 11 also lost Hptm. Horst-Günther von Fassong of Stab./JG 11 with 136 victories (including four four-engined bombers) when he was shot down and killed near Maastricht. Ofw. Karl Hiller of Stab III./JG 11 was shot down and taken prisoner. On the return trip several more JG 11 and other German fighters fell to friendly fire before the German guns could be called off.

 

[pbfoot]

It looks at least to me and using wiki that in each airfield attacked the losses were over 33% for the LW just curious as to why Y29 seems to be the battle that everyone talks about , is it possibly because its the only one "Dogfights" covered

 

[Njaco]

I dunno why.

JG 1 was decimated as was JG 2 among the fighters. REading a book "Six Months to Oblivion" by Werner Gerbig that - while having some mistakes gives a good account from the German perspective.

Also "To Win the Winter Sky" isn't bad either.

Here is a map from Gerbig's book.

 

[Sirkreu]

Hello all,

An important factor (together with others) for the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the airbattle above Y-29/Y-32, and the luck for the Americans on Y-29 is the fact that the Luftwaffe probably had mistaken about which airfields to attack.

I will explain. First of all Y-32 and Y-29 were situated 5 miles apart, near to the village of "Genk" (used to be called Genck in 1945) situated in the middle of the province of Limburg, Flanders, Belgium. Genk was and is known for its coalmines, so a lot of high slag-heaps (black hills) were in the vicinity (also a factor for confusion). But most of all, Y-32 was called "Ophoven" (Ophoven is next to the village of Opglabbeek). But there is another "Ophoven" in the province of Limburg, Flanders, Belgium. This Ophoven is situated in the North-East part of Limburg next to the village of "Kinrooi" (near the Dutch/German border). The Luftwaffe probably came from the North-East direction and didn't found an airfield in this "Ophoven", so they went to Y-32 (which they probably took for Y-29). So the American pilots on the real Y-29 had an all important postpone of time to start the airbattle. Ofcourse also luckily they were awake and in their planes! A lot of factors were playing for this defeat.

On Y-32 there were several planes destoyed by the Germans. The GPS-coordinates for Y-32 are N51°02'30" and E05°32'31".

Y-29 was called Asch (knowadays the village is called "As"), but actually the village where Y-29 was situated is "Wiemesmeer" near the village of "Zutendaal", province of Limburg, Flanders, Belgium. The GPS-coordinates for Y-29 are N50°57'46" and E05°34'25".

In the village of "As" there was a WWI Fliegerschiesschule (gunnery school) for the German Luftwaffe situated. Often confused with Y-29 because this loctaion was only 1 mile apart from Y-29.

To visualize you better need some maps...

Hope this helps. Friendly greetings.

 

[Milosh]

I dunno why.

JG 1 was decimated as was JG 2 among the fighters. REading a book "Six Months to Oblivion" by Werner Gerbig that - while having some mistakes gives a good account from the German perspective.

Also "To Win the Winter Sky" isn't bad either.

Here is a map from Gerbig's book.

The best book is 'Bodenplatte' by Jon Manrho and Ron Putz. ISBN 1-902109-40-6

There is 28 pages devoted to the attack on Asch.

 

[Njaco]

Thanks Milosh. Added to the "I Want..." library!

 

[stona]

The best book is 'Bodenplatte' by Jon Manrho and Ron Putz. ISBN 1-902109-40-6.

I couldn't agree more. It is pretty much a must have book for anyone interested in the Bodenplatte fiasco.

Cheers

Steve

 

[drgondog]

The performance of the individual aircraft had very little to do with the failure of operation Bodenplatte, It was the faulty planning based on poor intelligence, and having too few experienced pilots to perform the mission. The attack was doomed before the first aircraft took off.

The Luftwaffe never before lost as many pilots in a single day, they never recovered from the losses. The allies lost a lot of aircraft in the attacks also, but few pilots.

The allies easily replaced the aircraft lost. The Luftwaffe lost experienced pilots they could never replace, and inexperienced pilots who with a little more experience might have made some difference later.

While Boddenplatte was disastrous, November 1944 was even more disastrous to LW in the West.

 

[parsifal]

havent read the full extent of this thread, but an air battle aimed at wresting control of the skies over germany in late 1944 was doomed to failure. The allies by that time were simply too strong especially in terms of fighter support for the Germans to realistically do anythning to make any difference. Even if the operation had been 3 or 5 times more effective than it was historically, the best that the germans could hope for was a disruption to allied operations by maybe 24 hours at best.

The only thing that might have made a difference in the latter part of 1944, was if somehow the LW could withdraw from operation (accepting massive damage in the Reich), and train their fighters for ground attack. Then as part of the Ardennes offensive, commit everything that flies to supporting the ground offensive. Losses would be prohibitive......no thought to air defence, everything carrying bombs to try and give the ground assault enough steam to cross the Meuse and encircle the Allied armies either in the north or the south. The only weakness for the allies in late 1944 was the shortages of trained manpower for their ground armies....put a hole in the ground ofensive, and the germans might have gained a bargainng chip at the peace table.

highly unlikley, but the best option in my opinion...