Gladiators of World War II : Waffen SS

[Hesekiel]

You can call EVERY bombing of a civil city a war crime...
A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler, wasn't the Allgemeine SS a more "generic" form of the Waffen SS, where the true "bad guys" were from the Waffen SS?

I put those words in quotes because I mean them in very general terms.

Actually it goes a lot more deeper than that.

The Algemeine SS were a non combat form of the SS and the Waffen SS were an elite fighting force.

There were many different branches of the SS. The worst of them were the SS-Totenkopfverbände which were the concentration camp guards.

That is the thing though, you can not lump the whole SS into one big clump. There literally were a dozen different branches of the SS.

A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........

Does not change a thing. London, Amsterdam, Warsaw, etc. all were well known to have civilians living in them!

 

[Hesekiel]

You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....

No, I chose not to quote it. You make it seem like Dresden was worse because there were refugees in the city. How are refugees worse than any other civilian?

 

[Hesekiel]

What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
So i would like to make a difference..

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
So i would like to make a difference..

There is no difference. A civilian population is a civilian population.

Wieluń
Frampol
Rotterdam
London
Belfast
Birmingham
Bristol
Cardiff
Clydebank
Coventry
Greenock
Sheffield
Swansea
Liverpool
Hull
Manchester
Portsmouth
Plymouth
Nottingham
Southampton
Paris
Liege
Lille
Antwerp
Stalingrad
Leningrad

Just to name some of them...

Were all civilian populations. The Germans new that civilians lived there...

 

[parsifal]

This is not going to be popular, but the blame for warcrimes does not rest with the SS. It is with the Nazi regime as a whole. It is true that warcrimes were committed by all nations, but the Germans stand out as the exception to the rule, even the Japanese.

Only the Germans issued illegal orders, contrary to the Hague conventions to shoot and murder Prisoners of War. That is an illegal order repeated by no other nation, not even the Japanese. The accusation of illegality cannot be levelled at the Japs, because they were no signatories to the Hague or Geneva conventions. The orders issued by Hitler were issued as secret orders, because it was known that they were not legal under international law.

So, in my view it is wrong to blame just one element of the German armed forces for the nations entire war guilt. And I have the findings of the Nuremberg trials and the peace treaties between germany to protect me when I state that. The nation of Germany was guilty of waging agrressive war, and state sponsored murder. We should forgive that....its more than sixty years, but we should never forget who, what and why.

I apologize if I offend the German members of this forum, but it is an issue I feel very strongly about. Who was responsible for the war and the guilt they carry for that.

 

[Hesekiel]

You know.. i could also make a long list with names of cities..
I think we have there a different opinion...
You are right if you say civilian is civilian... BUT.. in my eyes there is a big difference if it is known that a city is so overfilled with people that there is now place for them in the buildings, shelters or bunkers... The streets of the town was full with refugees .. and THIS is the fact i mean...
Bombing civilian cities is a crime.. Bombing a civilian city that is overfilled with refugees and this circumstance is known is simply a act of mass-homicide...
That is my personal opinion....
And... don´t forget to name the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki....

 

[Amsel]

I know there were other victims of war crime and continue to be up until this day. Times were very different back then in Germany during the war. I will reserve judgement on the Germans but not the crimes. That war was horrible and unecessary, and was made worse by the hare-brained racial policies of the goverment as well as it's excesses in taking human life. But I think the act of killing people illegally according to the laws of war comes down to a very slippery slope. Any one who orders it to be done is guilty of war crimes and should be killed. But what about shell shocked units? this seems to be a recurring theme throughout history of war. Civilian populations taking the brunt of the anger from weary or crazed troops.

 

[evangilder]

Not just civilians, but POWs as well. I was reading some yesterday about the liberation of Dachau. Americans separated out the SS from the other Wehrmacht soldiers and gunned down many because they were SS. They had just come from discovering train loads of dead bodies on their way to Dachau. After seeing that, it appears the Americans weren't feeling too forgiving. Coupled with some of Patton's quotes, there was quite a bloodbath outside of Dachau. War is hell.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You know.. i could also make a long list with names of cities..
I think we have there a different opinion...
You are right if you say civilian is civilian... BUT.. in my eyes there is a big difference if it is known that a city is so overfilled with people that there is now place for them in the buildings, shelters or bunkers... The streets of the town was full with refugees .. and THIS is the fact i mean...
Bombing civilian cities is a crime.. Bombing a civilian city that is overfilled with refugees and this circumstance is known is simply a act of mass-homicide...
That is my personal opinion....
And... don´t forget to name the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki....

NO there is no difference. I do not care how many civilians were there or not. The fact that you over and over again try to state otherwise is wrong!

Why do you try and church it up???

 

[Hesekiel]

Well.. This is your opinion and i have my one.. think we should simply respect each others.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I do not understand your opinion. Sorry, it is so.

Whenever someone brings up German atrocities you quickly change the subject. We all know that atrocities were committed by all sides during the war. That does not change the fact that Germany committed the worst.

To say that Dresden is worse than London or Antwerp is terrible.

To always try and change the subject is terrible!

I am not anti German. I am half German, I have lived here for over 20 years, my mother is German, my wife is German. I believe it is time to forgive, but we can never forget. To try and church things up like that, is almost as bad as saying it never happened!

I mean lets bring up Frampol. It was completely destroyed by the Luftwaffe for one and one reason only. To test and see what would happen when you bomb a town!

"The Bombing of Frampol happened during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol (Poland), with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of town's infrastructure was destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, plus a few houses.[3] As Norman Davies writes in

"Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory‎":Frampol was chosen partly because it was completely defenceless, and partly because its baroque street plan presented a perfect geometric grid.[4] The city lacked any military facilities or military defenders."

Here is a pic of Frampol. Left is before the bombing and right is afterwards:

Now this discussion has gotten off topic enough. Basically I am saying that before you downplay something you might want look at the other side as well.

 

[Hesekiel]

Oh oh...
I don´t change the subject anyway!
But i can´t understand your opinion...
I said it often enough... Bombing civilian cities is a crime..
And again i say if it is known that a city is such overfilled like Dresden it is mass homicide... I would say exactly the same if those things happened by germans....
Explain me please what you mean with "anytime i change the subject"..
I think i go my way straight!
I tell only my point of view.. not more and not less.. like you..

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And again i say if it is known that a city is such overfilled like Dresden it is mass homicide...

How are the lives of the people in Dresden any less than those living in Liverpool? Were the people in Frampol able to defend themselves? See my point? You basically are saying that the lives of others are less, because only Dresden was mass homicide?

Explain me please what you mean with "anytime i change the subject"..
I think i go my way straight!
I tell only my point of view.. not more and not less.. like you..

You always do. This is a discussion about the Waffen SS and you quickly bring up about how Dresden was a crime! In threads that are about the Nazi Death Camps you quickly bring up the American Native Indians. Don't take me wrong, what happened to them was a tragedy as well, but if you want to discuss that then do so in a thread about that, don't change the subject of the existing thread, especially on such a sensitive subject.

Now again, we have taken this way off topic enough, lets get back to the topic at hand. Waffen SS...

 

[Hesekiel]

Yes.. the thread have run off topic enough...
But i think i have to clear something, because i feel me personally attacked..
1. My post about dresden was a reaction of the posts from Amsel and Maestro
2. I NEVER doubted german war crimes !
The only thing i want to say is that every nation have done wrong things sometimes.. And i thing there is nothing wrong to do this.
There is absolutely no excuse for the things that are done in the 33/45 periode.. What i say is just my opinion and my point of view.. Believe me.. I´m a nearly 50 years old german and i know the horrible things happened well..
But i don´t have to feel "guilty" . And i think it is allowed to compare something...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I do not think anyone feels that you should feel guilty or sorry or have to apologize for what happened. You had nothing to do with, neither did most of the Germans or the Germans who were born after the war.

The only ones who should have to feel guilty or answer for these crimes are those that committed them.

 

[Hesekiel]

So we are at least going in one essential point conform..

Let´s go back on topic......

 

[parsifal]

Oradour was a absolutely horrible thing...
But you should note one thing...
This crime was taken by one company of the division. This has discredited the whole division..

This excuse would hold water if it were the only massacre the Division was involved in. How would you like to explain the massacres committed by members of the division engaged in reprisals against the towns of Montperzat-de-Quercy, St. Cere, Bagnac, Cardaillac, Lauze, caylus, Cadrieu, Frontenac, Figeac and Terrou, (amongst others), in which extensive looting, rapes, arson and murder of civilians occurred.

Would you care to explain to me how the Divisional standing orders, drafted by no less than Divisional HQ, bearing the signature of its CO, Lammerding, in which he formally outlined the repressive measures to be effected against civilians in areas in which resistance units were operating can be passed off as the activities of a "rogue element" of the division?????. On June 9, Das Reich divisional headquarters issued an Order of the Day, "The Position with Regard to Guerilla Bands and Tactics for Combatting Them". You should take the time to read this document some time, it more extensively and explicitly outlined the scope of reprisals the division was to take (at the minimum) for infractions against the established order, and included a whole range of illegal activities that brought immense and unnecessary suffering to thousands. These and other actions by the OKW Command and Lammerding set the background for subsequent mass reprisals against civilians in France and were consistent with Waffen SS activities by this and other units on the Eastern Front in preceding years."


The activities of 2nd SS are not unusual or atypical of SS activities, in fact they represented the most "successful" implementation of standard SS policy. To try and pass it off as some sort of "one off" or something unusual is grotesque and offensive to the thousands of dead allied, Soviet French and other allied/occupied countries that suffered at the hands of SS attrocities. PLease do not try and pass that off as some sort of unusual behaviour. It was not.

 

[Amsel]

The Waffen SS was a huge organization during the war, eventually growing into 38 divisions fielding over 950,000 men. It was a volunteer force and the training was quite tough. About 1 in 3 failed the course. The WSS mainly were indoctrinated in weapons, physical fitness and politics. Why would anyone volunteer for the tougher training? I think it is mostly because of the laid back organization of the WSS. Something similar to todays military where mutual respect is emphasized more then strict military discipline.