Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in the Mediterranean?

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At the moment Im looking for evidence of what and how the Axis forced the straits. By far the most common method was by U-Boat, and perhaps 60 boats managed to enter the straits and perhaps 40 Italian boats transferred from the Med to the Atlantic Ports to take part in the Battle Of the Atlantic. So the Straits were somewhat porous to Axis traffic, of sorts, though I do remain very sceptical that getting a Battle squadron past Gib is the same as a U-Boat.

By October 1939, Dönitz had decided to use three Type IXs could be used to intercept the first Allied convoys of the war. U-25, U-26 and U-53 were to rendezvous southwest of Ireland before attempting to force the Straits and attack the convoys in the Mediterranean. Things began to go wrong from the outset when U-25 was diverted to a convoy southwest of Lisbon. After an unsuccessful torpedo attack on a steamer on 31 October, Schultze, U-25's commander, surfaced and proceeded to sink his target with fire from his deck gun. This course of action caused a crack in a vital part of the submarine, obliging the boat to return to Germany.

U-53 ran low on fuel after shadowing a convoy in the Bay of Biscay and was also forced to return.

This only left U-26, which compelled by a combination of unsuitable weather, searchlights and British anti-submarine patrols, abandoned any attempt at laying mines before Gibraltar harbour. The boat however did manage to sail through the Straits while on the surface and claimed but a solitary ship sunk in the Mediterranean. This 'sinking' was not confirmed by post-war analysis. She was one of the few boats to force the straits surfaced.

U-26 headed back through the Straits, arriving in Wilhelshaven on 5 December 1939; the only U-boat to successfully enter and leave the Mediterrannean in World War II.

This mission was summed-up in the BdU Kriegstagebuch (KTB) War Diary thus:

It was a mistake to send U-25, U-26 and U-53 into the Mediterranean. U-25 had to return before she ever got there, U-53 did not get through and U-26 hardly encountered any shipping worth mentioning. This patrol shows all the disadvantages of a long outward passage.

As an aside, more than half the attacks in the med by submarines from both sides were carried out surfaced. This was because of the lack of water depth more than anything, but also because many of the targets were so small as to be considered unworthy of a torpedo attack

With regard to RAF assets, construction of a solid surface runway began in late 1939 and in 1940 the runway was extended to a length of 1,550 yards (1,417 m). The land reclamation commenced towards the end of 1941 along with the construction of an RAF camp at the "North Front", now RAF Gibraltar.

At the beginning of 1940 the RAF dispatched their first squadron to Gibraltar in response to the "strong possibility of German submarines concentrating in the Strait of Gibraltar and using Spanish port facilities" (just a little late I guess). , loomed large in Admiralty thinking.On the 9th September 1939, No. 202 Squadron RAF was ordered to Gibraltar, loaded to the gunwales with equipment. This squadron started the war equipped with Saro Flying Boats, before coverting Sunderland and later (from the end of 1941) Catalina flying boats. They were credited with the sinking of 9 U-Boats, all but ntwo of which have been positively confirmed post wart.

Later, On 25 September 1939, No 200 (Coastal) Group was formed as a subordinate formation to HQ RAF Mediterranean in control of No 202 Sqn. The Group's function was the control of Royal Air Force units operating from Gibraltar. In late 1940 the Group was transferred to Coastal Command. Later a combined HQ was formed which commenced operations in early 1942.

U-boat net has an interesting map showing the U-Boat losses in the vicinity of gib. It was considered a very dangerous place for U-boats by Doenitz's command.

This link gives an interesting Italian perspective on the straits defences. I would say the italians were more successful thjan the Germans art dealing with the straits challenges as a generalization.

Mussolini's War: Fascist Italy's Military Struggles from Africa and Western ... - Frank Joseph - Google Books

According to Milan N. Vego (Naval Strategy and Operations in Narrow Seas) the RN laid about 10000 mins in the waters around Gibraltor. 93 German U-boats attempted the passage into the med, of which 62 were successful, only one one boat ever attempted the escape from the med, and U-Boats are inherently safer in running the gauntlet of a minefiled. Roughly speaking, id say the German Battle squadron would have about a 50/50 chance of not hitting a mine in early 1941.

Its difficult to pinpoint the exact strength of Force H, as its strength varied almost on a daily basis, moreover as the war progressed, and reliance on carriers increased, more and more the slower battleships were "left at the home port" so are often not included in the accounts of Force H operations. For example, during March, there were three slow battleships generally stationed at Gib, but neither in the operation before or after March 1941, are they mentioned. In a proposed forcing of the strait, however they of course need to be considered.

Convoy "Excess" in January 1941, lists available forces as 1 Carrier, 1 Battlecruiser, 4 cruisers and 14 destroyers. Operation "Substance" lists the forces committed as 1 carrier, 1 battleship, 1 Battlecruiser, 5 cruisers and 21 destroyers. From the middle of March to the middle of July 1 of the Battleships stationed at Gib included a Rodney Class BB.
 
If the RN gets enough advance warning they could simply place 2 old Battleships even a couple of Royal Sovereigns in the area and wait. The Twins were very tough but no one in there right mind would risk going up against a 15" shell at virtual point blank range.

It could be done but what a risk for what end. Maybe the Twins get as far as Taranto completely unscathed but you can guarantee they are now bottled up in the Med no way will they be able to do the same trick twice.
 
To me the whole scenario doesn't make sense or have any tactical or strategical advantages.

The RM was at the Mediterranean as an axis partner and objective it was a very strong Navy Force, but very halfhearted leaded.

Hitler wasn't at any time realy interested in a strategic war only against GB, with a focal point at the Mediterranean and a war at sea.
Such scenarios only could get in action if Germany didn't invade the SU and only focus at GB.
Then there would be the possibility to invade Malta and with pressure to Spain, Gibraltar fron the spanish side at 1941! Only if Germany and Italy realy focus agressive and with full force/heart on such a war at the Mediterranean/NA, with logistics and Oil two both fleets, air forces and troops, you can realy create pressure on GB and at such a scenario Gibraltar would be a good base for german heavy units for raiding the Atlantic.

Bismarck was hunted down through a lot of luck with this torpedo hit against her controls and to my opinion if the KM had realy had nuts, Tirpitz would be right on her side with Prinz Eugen and then the Rheinübung mission would be a total other game. Also Bismarck was send to this mission without a real functioning AA, through her different AA mountings, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau didn't have this problem.
 
And just where would these bombers fly from ?????
If the Germans were allowed overflights of Spanish airspace, they could hit Gibraltar from southwest occupied France. The He111 and Ju88 had the range to make the round trip, Stukas on the otherhand, would not be able to.

Otherwise make arrangements with the Vichy government to perhaps stage raids from North Africa.

I'm sure that since this is a hypothetical scenario, we can look at possible alternatives to the known historical events/timeline.
 
The possibility of German entry into Vichy North Africa except by overrunning Vichy " Case Anton" style is extremely remote. Historically Vichy viewed its territories in North Africa as its core power base after its defeat in June 1940. it retained the majority of its strength there and steadfastly refused all requests by both the Italians and the Germans to enter its territories. When the Axis did finally move to occupy French North Africa, those parts that could not be occupied quickly joined the allies. We can only expect the french fleet to scuttle itself, But British plans in the event of any action by the Axis in French North Africa were to assist by sending in approximately a Corps equivalent of troops. Coupled with the 12 divisions or so of Vichy troops, already stationed there, and the several hundred aircraft. In addition there was the equivalent of a further 10 divs or so in the colonies elsewhere, all of which would be delivered to the Allies free and gratus. A huge windfall for Britain in early 1941. It places the Axis position in North Africa at great risk

The same basic situation applies to any significant movement of German troops into the unoccupied zone of metropolitan Vichy. Any such move would be unlikely to be resisted, but it would cause a wholesaler movement of aircraft and possibly even ships to the colonies. It would place enormous strains on the Germans logistically, and in early March 1941, would require the use of yet another mechanized group of the heer, virtually guranteeing a cancellation or still further delay of Barbarossa. If the occupation was attempted with unmotorised forces, the escape of the French fleet, retention of Corsica amd evacuation of large portions of the vichy Army to North Africa, as was planned, was virtually assured

Politically it would be suicide for the germans. Though they could justify intervention in November 1942, on the grounds of "protecting" vichy from further Allied incursions, such justification did not exist in March 1941. To a man, Germany's Allies would view this sort of treachery by the Germans against their friends for the duplicity that it was, and react accordingly. German diplomatic credibility would be totally wrecked if they did this, which is why Franco included the carve up of French colonies as a prerequisite for him entering the war. He knew that it was a price Germany could not realistically pay.

German intervention of Vichy territory qwould come at a very heavy cost, for not much benefit.
 
Nobody has refered to your explanation! My explanation was Vichy and Spain joinn the war on the axis side without any occupation, only cooperation. This is fiction but possible, with a more gifted leader then Hitler!
 
Well, the suggestion was the Vichy Government allowing the Germans access to an airfeild for a temporary staging base. There's always the possibility of "strings being pulled" here and there.

Either that or convincing Spain to allow overflights for the operation. Logistically it's not impossible, but the big stumbing block is the diplomatic end of it.
 
now that is a far more realistic suggestion. A carrier battle between the Graf Zeppelin, and the Ark Royal....very interesting

Ark Royal has a nominal air group of 63 aircraft, Graf Zeppelin 38 (estimated). Neither carrier is likely to have a fully authorised CAG, so we should just run through a hypothetical, on the assumption that both have their authorised complements

The first element of the equation to consider is the likelihood of GZ being completed. Unlikely. it had been planned that she would be commissioned at the end of 1940, but in September 1940, a decision was made not to complete her. The Germans still had not solved the catapult problems they were having, neither did they really have an effective air torpedo as yet, though they could have utilised some of the excellent Italian torpedoes if they could swallow their pride to do so.

On April 29 1940, Raeder recorded "the fuhrer is of the opinion that aircraft carriers with internal combustion engines will not be usable beyond this war". By May, all work had stopped on the carrier, and by June, the germans had already begun stripping the hull out to use such things as they could. However, German interst in her did oscillate, alot. In july all this backward movement was stopped, and the decision was taken, briefly to have her made rady for sea trials, less her cvatapults and aircraft handling equipment.

In my mind the most likley time that Germany may have changed its mind on might be after Taranto. But assuming the Germans were more appreciative of carrier warfare than they were, lets assume they moved to completion on the basis of the prewar arrangements, and not allow themselves to be deviated by doubt about the usage of this carrier. We need to assume also that the Germans could overcome some of the catapult difficulties and aircraft handling difficulties that they faced. GZ still would not realisitcally be able to launch a full deckload given of aircaft given the very limited endurance of her fighter component. With an authorised air component of 12 Me 109s and 26-28 Ju87Ts (Im assuming work on the Fi 167 torpedo carrier would be abandoned, it would not have been ready by March 1941 anyway), the Germans never assumed or planned on escorting their Ju87s to any meaningful extent.

Assuming the Germans had gone to sea with the SH, GN and GZ in January, there is a high risk this force would suffer a fairly high attrition rate whilst at sea. There is of course some reasoning to say that the TG might position itself near Brest on its return, to receive replacement aircraft. A cruise into the Atlantic for the GZ might give the aircrews and maintenance teams a bit of a chance to work up properly, but it is unrealistic to think that these guys could be comparable to the British Carrier. Its a similar situation to what faced Nelson 140 years earlier. His crews had tirelssly trained and deployed for the whole duration, whilst the opposing Napoleonic fleet was completely green. British gunnery at trafalgar was deadly accurate in comparison, and about twice the ROF. In this latter day Trafalgar, British launch rates would easily be at least double, accident rates a fraction, range superior, ordinance superior, night capable crews, and crews trained to near perfection as far as accuracy was concerned. Witness their perfomance 2 months later over the bismarck.

The Ark Royal had an actual air group of about 24 Swordfish and 12 Fulmars, though she frequently was carrying another 24 Hurricanes on her decks in Malta relief operations. When operating against the italian fleet in November, she had 12 Fulmars and 20. There were no losses in November and the carrier returned to Gibraltar for further training and receival of additional aircraft. Ive not been able to determine the types just at this stage. In early January the older carrier Eagle was detachewd to the South Atlantic and AR sent to attack Sardinia and Genoa. 24 Swordfish were available for that attack, dont know how many Fulmars. in february the British returned, using nearly 30 Swordfish in strikes again targeting Sardinian infrastructure. Against the bismarck in May, the AR flew off 10 aircraft for Search, retained 4 for ASW, and flew off 14 Swordfish against the great batleship. There were 14 Fulmars embarked as far as I am aware.

So the best estimate I could offer in a realistic scenario, the GZ CAG as follws......probably about 6 Me 109s, and maybe 18-20 Ju87s, versus 14 Fulmars and 30 Swordfish

Assuming the British are the aggressor group, the Germans would have to maintain standing patrols, they might have either 1 or two 109s available, depending on how lucky they were. They would have 2 refuelling and rearming, and 2 either just landing or l returning for lack of fuel. The biggest single strike the Brits had mounted to that point from a single carrier was 16 aircraft. If I were the British flight leader, I would split my Swordfish into four separate elements, wach attacking from one of the four compass points. There would be no escort....the british tended to rely on the cover of darkness to protect their atrike aircraft. The most likely time of attack would be either just before dawn, or just after dusk. Reduced visibility and the ability of the Swordfish to come in at wavetop height would make them a very hard targert for the German fighters, as was shown hgistorically on many occasions. If sea conditions are rough, the stringbags would be ducking in and out of wave cover all the time making it harder than expected for the emils to get a clear shot. There would no diving attacks at this altitude and the fighters are probably forced to operate at reduced speeds to conserve fuel. minimal advance warning because of the very low approach altitudes. a good chance of bagging a carrier in my opinion.

now for my opinion on the Ju87 attacks on the Ark. Allowing for searches, possibly 10 Ju87s available for attack. Would almost certainly need to attack in daylight,and at an approach altitude of about 10K. more time for the Fulmars to scramble. Illustrious had detected the attacking stukas there with about 20 minutes to spare, and with operatinal Fulmars, had managed to get 6 airborne. This was a surprise attack by the germans, and the 6 airborne fighters are believed to have shot down 5 of the attacking raiders, however air defence was generally disjointed and poor. About 30 stukas attacked the carrier and secured 6 hits or near misses. Extrapolating from their, one could expect 2 hits on the Ark Royal . Is that enough to destroy her? I am doubtful of that. Likely ordinance is a 500lb bomb for each Stuka, as the 1000 lbers reduce the range too much , and 2 500 lbs hits is not enough to sink a modern carrier.
 
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Not only during the day time, Carrier Stuka Gruppe I./186 actually received some training at night time attacks as well. They were supposed to do a night time attack at some major power plant in or around London which got canceled.
 
I would imagine that the Ar196s aboard the escort ships would be better for scouting duties ahead of the Graf Zepplin's task force, keeping the much needed fighters and strike aircraft aboard the carrier unless they wanted to keep a defensive umbrella in place.
 
The Twins had a standing order if they came across even an old R class RN battleship, it instructed them to "Run away"
 
How about a German Admiral given control of the Italian Fleet in the med. There was little wrong with the Italian ships or crews, it was the leadership that was lacking.
Actually the main problem for the Italian fleet was fuel oil, the lack of which inhibited the conduct of operations throughout the time the fleet was operating with the Axis.
 

No doubt, but only really available in calm sea conditions. Carriers can operate in rougher conditions than seaplanes, because the seaplane needs to land on the ocean . You could apply similar logic to the British ships carrying seaplanes, or the seaplanes operating from Gib.
 
Really ! How many landings and take offs from a carrier had they completed ?

The exact same number as numerous USN and Maine pilots shipped into combat during WW2, plus they had the added benefit being German naval aviators most (if not all) had extensive experience flying float planes based on ships. If you would like to learn more about their training I would recommend United States Naval Institute Proceedings - Vol. 93, Nos. 1-3, Jan. - Mar., 1967 article titled Hitler's Flattop: The End of the Beginning of for a more current (and IMHO better source) Memoirs Of A Stuka Pilot Helmut Mahlke who was actually in the Carrier Stuka Gruppe I./186.

You do understand we are talking theoretical, right?
 

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