Goodyear F2G vs Grumman F8F Bearcat

[FLYBOYJ]

This is totally unbelievable.
Take-off speed is, say 100 mph. 115 feet is 38 yards. That is a plausible acceleration ( average about 3g) for a Top Fuel dragster, but not for a WW2 wintage stock propeller airplane.
Or then there must have been a storm like headwind.

Renee Francillon notes in his book "Grumman Aircraft Since 1929" (page 251): "The Bearcat's exceptional climb performance had been demonstrated on 20 November 1946, during the National Air Races in Cleveland, Ohio, when an F8F- flown by Lt. Cdr. M. W. Davenport set an unofficial time-to-height record by reaching 10,000 feet (3,048 m) in 1 minute 34 seconds."

This is from another forum written by our own R Leonard;


This was "Operation Pogo Stick" conducted as a demonstration at the Cleveland Air Race, November 22, 1946. An F8F-1 piloted by Comdr. Bill Leonard set a new time to climb record, from a dead stop to 10K feet in 97.8 seconds, including a 150 foot take off run. Unfortunately, he didn't get to keep the record very long. Lieut. Comdr. Butch Davenport came along about 15 minutes later and set the next new record of 94 seconds, also in an F8F-1 in a 115 foot take off run. Leonard's take off was into an estimated 30 kt head wind, by the time Davenport took off the head wind was over 40 kts. These wind speeds helped to reduce the time on the ground. Both were assigned to TACTEST at the time; Cdr Leonard was TACTEST projects officer. Lt Cdr Davenport was the F8F project officer. The F8F's used were the standard Navy aircraft, armed, with ammunition. The planes were modified, however, to allow full emergency military power with the landing gear down, something you couldn't do in a stock airplane due to safety locks.

The rapid climb to altitude was the F8F's bread and butter. The plane was to have been the solution to the kamikaze problem ... rapid climb capability, firepower, speed, and more (better) maneuverability than the F6F or F4U.

I've heard folks say that that Leonard and Davenport pretty well trashed the engines on their planes, but that is not so. This was not a spur of the moment stunt ". . . Hey, let's go up to Cleveland . . . I hear they're having an Air Race today . . . Maybe we can set a record of some kind". Actually they'd been practicing back at Patuxent with the same planes used in Cleveland, doing (without checking logs) three or four practice runs each. After the demonstration they flew those same planes back to TACTEST.

Somewhere around here I've got some pictures of Leonard and his plane maybe some of Davenport, too.

Regards,

Rich Leonard
(not a coincidence)

 

[GregP]

The Bearcat used had guns but I don't know if it had any ammo ... probably not. It had all the Naval gear including arrester hook.

As I said, it was a STOCK U.S. Navy F8F-2, perhaps with some engine tweaks, but all the gear was in place. We have heard this feat described by visiting former pilots who were there and gave lectures at the museum. They never described the state of the bearcat other than that it was a "stock, standard Bearcat, clean." So we know it had no external fuel or ordnance, but everything else was there including the radio since they spoke with the pilot on the way up.

Edit:

I see from FlyboyJ's post above the plane was an F8F-1. That is different from what we heard, but both were Bearcats. I see Mr. Leonard says it had ammo, too. Live an learn.

 

[wuzak]

A Spitfire LF.IX managed time to climb of 2min 10s (130s) using +25psi boost, PN150 fuel and a weight of 7400lb. This appears to be at or near max loaded weight.

Spitfire IX Trials at +25 boost

Not sure if that includes the take off roll, possibly not.

Imagine what it could do with +30psi boost and being lightly loaded (say 6000lb).

One of the Prototype XIVs managed 2.3 minutes to 10,000ft, at 8400lb. Using +18psi boost only.

Spitfire Mk XIV Performance

 

[Matt308]

94 sec to FL100, even with a headwind, is phenomenally hard to wrap your mind around for a prop fighter. That's amazing no matter how you look at it.

 

[GregP]

Yes, it IS. Also amazing is watch the Reno racers, after the end of the gold race, cross the finish line and pull up at about 60° and get to 5 - 6,000 feet in just seconds at 480 - 500 mph.

 

[Timppa]

A Spitfire LF.IX managed time to climb of 2min 10s (130s) using +25psi boost, PN150 fuel and a weight of 7400lb. This appears to be at or near max loaded weight.

Spitfire IX Trials at +25 boost

This is a good reality check for performance:
Spitfire IX, +25lb/in^2 boost, 7400lb weight: Power between 0-10,000 ft: average 1900 hp. Time to 10,000 ft: 130s.
3,9 lb/hp = 4,610 fpm

Stock F8F-1: weight 9,600 lbs, power needed to same weight/power - ratio: 2460 hp
Stock F8F-2: weight: 10,400 lb, power needed to same weight/power -ratio: 2670 hp.

And according to the legend the climb rate was 6,400 fpm.

Lyle Sheltons Bearcat had 4000+ hp with much less weight for the alleged performance.

The numbers just don't add up.

 

[GregP]

A stock F8F-2 Bearcat weighs in at 7,650 pounds empty weight. If you want to set a record, you can fly it quite light, with just fuel and pilot, and you'd barely break 8,000 pounds.

The weights you quoted are operational weights, as it would be if flown from a carrier on a mission.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

F8F-1 empty weight is 7,070. 15 minutes of fuel and a pilot would be well under 8,000 pounds. The 1946 record was set at near sea level. I'm not 100% sure but I think Shelton flew his Bearcat at Stead, over 4,000 feet above sea level at 1000F (just kidding, but it is very hot there)

 

[krieghund]

OK I found my F8F-1 charts to compare to the F8F-2 charts posted earlier.

 

[krieghund]

I also have this chart to compare against other US Aircraft. In this chart the XF8F-1 is climbing at 5850fpm.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I doubt those charts are "legends."

At 9386 pounds with full internal fuel it's showing 4570 fpm at sea level, 10,000' at 2.6 minutes. With a 30 or 40 knot head wind that 4570 fpm is going to be a lot higher. I see nothing "unbelieveable" about the 1946 record. The only "cheat" was the head winds and note that the charts show no head winds greater than 25 knts

 

[krieghund]

I doubt those charts are "legends."s

"10-9?"

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"10-9?"

Meaning they are accurate and authentic

 

[wuzak]

This is a good reality check for performance:
Spitfire IX, +25lb/in^2 boost, 7400lb weight: Power between 0-10,000 ft: average 1900 hp. Time to 10,000 ft: 130s.
3,9 lb/hp = 4,610 fpm

Stock F8F-1: weight 9,600 lbs, power needed to same weight/power - ratio: 2460 hp
Stock F8F-2: weight: 10,400 lb, power needed to same weight/power -ratio: 2670 hp.

And according to the legend the climb rate was 6,400 fpm.

Lyle Sheltons Bearcat had 4000+ hp with much less weight for the alleged performance.

The numbers just don't add up.

The Spitfire was at or near its maximum weight.

Empty weight for a IX is 5000-odd pounds.

For the F8F-2 at 8000lbs the power (for the same p/w ratio as the Spit) is 2051hp.

 

[krieghund]

Meaning they are accurate and authentic

10-4

 

[davparlr]

The Spitfire was at or near its maximum weight.

Empty weight for a IX is 5000-odd pounds.

For the F8F-2 at 8000lbs the power (for the same p/w ratio as the Spit) is 2051hp.

Ray Wagner's book "American Combat Planes" show the engine for an F8F-2 as being an R-2800-34W with 2300 take-off hp.

 

[krieghund]

Ray Wagner's book "American Combat Planes" show the engine for an F8F-2 as being an R-2800-34W with 2300 take-off hp.

The US Navy charts indicates a -30W version

 

[wuzak]

Ray Wagner's book "American Combat Planes" show the engine for an F8F-2 as being an R-2800-34W with 2300 take-off hp.

I was just following Timppa's reasoning.

Not saying that is how much power the F8F had.

 

[Shortround6]

There were 4 engines used in the F8F series. The XF8F-1 used an R-2800-22W, the XF8F-1 also used the R-2800-34W as did the F8F-1 and F8F-1B (and other -1s?) while the XF8F-2 used the R-2800-30W (semi-production) and the F8F-2 and XF8F-3 used the R-2800-30W production engine. at least that is what this says : http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-2800/DoubleWaspIndex.pdf

all of these engines had water injection but all the military horse power ratings are dry ( no water injection) and WER ratings are not given.

 

[GregP]

Shouldn't we move this stuff to a thread about Bearcats?