33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,261
- Jan 31, 2021
I guess one must first define what is meant by "long-range" escort in this context. Particularly since the range at which the fighters could provide escort improved over time.
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As to Ludwigshafen being only LR escort prior to Big Week? How about multiple strikes to Halberstadt, Hamburg, Ludwigshafen, Bordeaux in December 43; Bordeaux 1-5, Halberstadt/Oschersleben/Bruswick 1-11; Brunswick 1-30 & 2-10; Ludwigshafen 2-11?
I agree. That said Friedrichshafen, Brunswick, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Wurzberg, etc were all beyond P-47D combat radius with 1x150 gal tank - but all in combat radius of P-51B w/o 85 gal tank and P-38H/J w/o leading edge 55 gal tank. During Big Week the only difference in the two LR escort types and early Dec, 1943 and mid Feb 1944 - was that the 20th FG came on line in late December and the 357th went operational in mid February - giving 8th AF planners four LR escort FG's capable of 450-475mi Combat Radius. That was about 75-100 miles beyond the P-47. In March the difference with internal fuse and LE tanks installed the CR extended to 600 (P-38J) and 700 (P-51B)I guess one must first define what is meant by "long-range" escort in this context. Particularly since the range at which the fighters could provide escort improved over time.
For the first question I was thinking of articles like this Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 LightningI don't recall seeing 20th or 55th FG claiming odds of 1:10 vs LW. Source?
As to Ludwigshafen being only LR escort prior to Big Week? How about multiple strikes to Halberstadt, Hamburg, Ludwigshafen, Bordeaux in December 43; Bordeaux 1-5, Halberstadt/Oschersleben/Bruswick 1-11; Brunswick 1-30 & 2-10; Ludwigshafen 2-11?
I have chastised my facebook friend Corey Jordan about many inaccuracies in that Austalian article. Not the least was understating P-47C/D Combat Radius as stated for Fall-Winter 1943.For the first question I was thinking of articles like this Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
although it does only claim odds of 5 to 1.
As for the second question I must apologize for a very poor post (I'm blaming jet lag). I don't know why I stated Ludwigshafen which really isn't that far. I was actually thinking of the January 11 raid on Brunswick, Halberstatdt and Oscherleben, which you noted. As for Bordeaux, I discount that as it wasn't a deep penetration of German airspace. In fact the two pervious missions to Bordeaux in December were unescorted. You might disagree.
The point I was trying to make was that Big Week was a step change in mission distances, which were 100 miles deeper than previously attempted. I have updated the chart I shared a couple of years ago with more info.
I have chastised my facebook friend Corey Jordan about many inaccuracies in that Austalian article. Not the least was understating P-47C/D Combat Radius as stated for Fall-Winter 1943.
With the 108 gallon tank in September, its planning Combat Radius (with assumptions for combat and reserve after dropping external tanks) was ~ 275mi and then w/150 gal belly tank Jan-Feb 1944) ~ 375mi. In the same time envelope the P-38H w/75 gal tanks in Oct-Nov was 275mi, but in December with 2x150gal tanks ~ 375mi. The Combat Radius discussion greatly overstated late 1943 for P-38 as "500 NM CR was not achieved until the 55ga LE tanks combined with the 2x150 gal externals - March 1944
For clarity regarding the discussion of 'LR' escort missions in the posts above - only the 1943 December/Jan 1944 P-38 AND P-51B could range as far as Hildesheim/Brunswick/Hamburg line - but pretty close to making Schweinfurt had the gamble been necessary.
Ludwigshafen at 410mi, not (quite) an example of deeper strikes to Leipzig (525) and Regensburg (570), air miles from Cambridge - but a distance only the P-47D-16 with 2x150gal combat tanks could achieve in April 1944. By that time the P-4D had been relegated to Penetration/Withdrawal Escort
The "5:1" adverse ratio could easily occur when either side could gain the upper hand with local superiority - the problem with the Article is very poor sourcing and cited references. There were many instances when mechanical failures approached and exceeded 50% returns of the P-38 force that took off. So, for example, Section of P-38s attacking - or being attacked by a Gruppe or combined squadron of escort and ZG units could find itself in numerical trouble easily.
Perhaps the most glaring example of goofy research was the unbelievable 'mislabeling' by the artist Kopp of the P-51B-5-NA (2 examples - tp and bottom) and P-51B-15-NA (middle) as P-51B-5, -10-"NT". NT denotes Dallas manufacture and if correct would have been P-51C
Now to the very confusing Map - which implies that the P-47 had a greater combat radius than the P-38. NO. The Only instance of near equal combat radius is when the P-47 carried a 108 gal belly tank and the P-38 (w/o LE 55 gal tanks) carried 2x75 externals... the 38 typically used 75 gallon until the flood of 150 gal combat tanks arrived in November (tear drop P-38 tank/not 'flat' belly tank for P-47.
What is date and source of the map? Even 'official Maps' produced in 1944 and even post war were flawed with lack of precision regarding internal and external tankage as well as model.
This is what I based the 375 mile radius on. I do not remember where I found it. Its been on my computer for years.
View attachment 638809
Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".This is what I based the 375 mile radius on. I do not remember where I found it. Its been on my computer for years.
View attachment 638809
The date maybe optimistic by a month according to this history:
View attachment 638810
View attachment 638811
This history is also the source of the chart I posted. I added the text boxes with specific missions and the P-47 combat radius.
I went back to the history to confirm the combat radius of a P-47 with a 108 tank and it indicates 325 miles not 375.
View attachment 638812
I devoted an entire chapter to this subject in my book.Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".
Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B. The Mustang shown is P-51B-1 w/o internal 85 gal fuse tank in December 1943; The P-38J depicted from March 1944 for P-38J-15 w/55 gal LE tanks mod to increase internal fuel; The P-47D shown w/2x150 gal is w/305 gal internal and plumbing/pylon kits to equivalent P-47D-16 delivered in March/April.
Also, there is no range 'bar' for P-51B w/269gal internal fuel (incl 85 gal fuse tank), nor 269 gal plus 2x108 gal combat tanks.
Based on your research what was the maximum radius for a P47 in January 1944?Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".
Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B. The Mustang shown is P-51B-1 w/o internal 85 gal fuse tank in December 1943; The P-38J depicted from March 1944 for P-38J-15 w/55 gal LE tanks mod to increase internal fuel; The P-47D shown w/2x150 gal is w/305 gal internal and plumbing/pylon kits to equivalent P-47D-16 delivered in March/April.
Also, there is no range 'bar' for P-51B w/269gal internal fuel (incl 85 gal fuse tank), nor 269 gal plus 2x108 gal combat tanks.
I was unaware that you have a book.I devoted an entire chapter to this subject in my book.
I was unaware that you have a book.
Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B.
I always liked that shot of Rafferty's "The Iowa Beaut" (shown on the cover)
The Maximum Penetration is support of Bombers' should be focused primarily on P-47 for R/V and Penetration to 'hand-off' for Target Support' escort - with the reverse - R/V with Target Support to relieve them, and then perform Withdrawal Support to some point near the Holland/France coast.Note also it has separate values for 'maximum penetration as target support' and 'maximum penetration in support of bombers.' The latter is the escort range. The source document is, if I recall correctly, an official USAAF one.
The only tanks dropped early were the 200/205 gal un-pressurized C/L Ferry tank somewhere 18K - often with half a tank of fuel remaining. Otherwise drop when attacked. BTW that is why ALL Combat Radius charts are prepared based o longest datum for which a fight and return flight home is solely on internal fuel available.Arent those curves also dependent on how much the LW had been pushed back as much as how much the range of machines had been increased? In the early days any L/R P-47 drop tanks would have been dropped early, wouldnt they?
One should recall that no 8th AF course for an attack deep in Germany was a straight line and that 'Combat Radius should be tempered with this understanding.