Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”. (1 Viewer)

[33k in the air]

As to Ludwigshafen being only LR escort prior to Big Week? How about multiple strikes to Halberstadt, Hamburg, Ludwigshafen, Bordeaux in December 43; Bordeaux 1-5, Halberstadt/Oschersleben/Bruswick 1-11; Brunswick 1-30 & 2-10; Ludwigshafen 2-11?

I guess one must first define what is meant by "long-range" escort in this context. Particularly since the range at which the fighters could provide escort improved over time.

 

[drgondog]

I guess one must first define what is meant by "long-range" escort in this context. Particularly since the range at which the fighters could provide escort improved over time.

I agree. That said Friedrichshafen, Brunswick, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Wurzberg, etc were all beyond P-47D combat radius with 1x150 gal tank - but all in combat radius of P-51B w/o 85 gal tank and P-38H/J w/o leading edge 55 gal tank. During Big Week the only difference in the two LR escort types and early Dec, 1943 and mid Feb 1944 - was that the 20th FG came on line in late December and the 357th went operational in mid February - giving 8th AF planners four LR escort FG's capable of 450-475mi Combat Radius. That was about 75-100 miles beyond the P-47. In March the difference with internal fuse and LE tanks installed the CR extended to 600 (P-38J) and 700 (P-51B)

Those targets above were only 'plannable' for P-47D when enough wing mod kits had been installed (April) t equip an entire FG. In same time frame December 1943 through March 1944, the target escort capability for P-47 was Bremen/Steinhuder Lake/NW Hannover.

The quantity of 85 gal fuselage tank kits and 55 gal LE kits were just reaching full squadron ops status in mid-Feb.

During Big Week the 8th AF Could have gone to Berlin/Munich - but only with intact Fighter squadron level force.

 

[pbehn]

From what I have seen posted here on the forum over the years, by carefully ignoring logic and reality a case can be made for both sides being outnumbered by ten to one.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I don't recall seeing 20th or 55th FG claiming odds of 1:10 vs LW. Source?

As to Ludwigshafen being only LR escort prior to Big Week? How about multiple strikes to Halberstadt, Hamburg, Ludwigshafen, Bordeaux in December 43; Bordeaux 1-5, Halberstadt/Oschersleben/Bruswick 1-11; Brunswick 1-30 & 2-10; Ludwigshafen 2-11?

For the first question I was thinking of articles like this Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
although it does only claim odds of 5 to 1.

As for the second question I must apologize for a very poor post (I'm blaming jet lag). I don't know why I stated Ludwigshafen which really isn't that far. I was actually thinking of the January 11 raid on Brunswick, Halberstatdt and Oscherleben, which you noted. As for Bordeaux, I discount that as it wasn't a deep penetration of German airspace. In fact the two pervious missions to Bordeaux in December were unescorted. You might disagree.
The point I was trying to make was that Big Week was a step change in mission distances, which were 100 miles deeper than previously attempted. I have updated the chart I shared a couple of years ago with more info.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's a shame that Ausairpower used Caidin as a reference, including this threadworn nugget:
"It is not surprising that German pilots nicknamed the P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel (the Fork-Tailed Devil)."

 

[drgondog]

For the first question I was thinking of articles like this Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
although it does only claim odds of 5 to 1.

I have chastised my facebook friend Corey Jordan about many inaccuracies in that Austalian article. Not the least was understating P-47C/D Combat Radius as stated for Fall-Winter 1943.

With the 108 gallon tank in September, its planning Combat Radius (with assumptions for combat and reserve after dropping external tanks) was ~ 275mi and then w/150 gal belly tank Jan-Feb 1944) ~ 375mi. In the same time envelope the P-38H w/75 gal tanks in Oct-Nov was 275mi, but in December with 2x150gal tanks ~ 375mi. The Combat Radius discussion greatly overstated late 1943 for P-38 as "500 NM CR was not achieved until the 55ga LE tanks combined with the 2x150 gal externals - March 1944

For clarity regarding the discussion of 'LR' escort missions in the posts above - only the 1943 December/Jan 1944 P-38 AND P-51B could range as far as Hildesheim/Brunswick/Hamburg line - but pretty close to making Schweinfurt had the gamble been necessary.

Ludwigshafen at 410mi, not (quite) an example of deeper strikes to Leipzig (525) and Regensburg (570), air miles from Cambridge - but a distance only the P-47D-16 with 2x150gal combat tanks could achieve in April 1944. By that time the P-4D had been relegated to Penetration/Withdrawal Escort

The "5:1" adverse ratio could easily occur when either side could gain the upper hand with local superiority - the problem with the Article is very poor sourcing and cited references. There were many instances when mechanical failures approached and exceeded 50% returns of the P-38 force that took off. So, for example, Section of P-38s attacking - or being attacked by a Gruppe or combined squadron of escort and ZG units could find itself in numerical trouble easily.

Perhaps the most glaring example of goofy research was the unbelievable 'mislabeling' by the artist Kopp of the P-51B-5-NA (2 examples - tp and bottom) and P-51B-15-NA (middle) as P-51B-5, -10-"NT". NT denotes Dallas manufacture and if correct would have been P-51C

Now to the very confusing Map - which implies that the P-47 had a greater combat radius than the P-38. NO. The Only instance of near equal combat radius is when the P-47 carried a 108 gal belly tank and the P-38 (w/o LE 55 gal tanks) carried 2x75 externals... the 38 typically used 75 gallon until the flood of 150 gal combat tanks arrived in November (tear drop P-38 tank/not 'flat' belly tank for P-47.

What is date and source of the map? Even 'official Maps' produced in 1944 and even post war were flawed with lack of precision regarding internal and external tankage as well as model.

As for the second question I must apologize for a very poor post (I'm blaming jet lag). I don't know why I stated Ludwigshafen which really isn't that far. I was actually thinking of the January 11 raid on Brunswick, Halberstatdt and Oscherleben, which you noted. As for Bordeaux, I discount that as it wasn't a deep penetration of German airspace. In fact the two pervious missions to Bordeaux in December were unescorted. You might disagree.
The point I was trying to make was that Big Week was a step change in mission distances, which were 100 miles deeper than previously attempted. I have updated the chart I shared a couple of years ago with more info.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I have chastised my facebook friend Corey Jordan about many inaccuracies in that Austalian article. Not the least was understating P-47C/D Combat Radius as stated for Fall-Winter 1943.

With the 108 gallon tank in September, its planning Combat Radius (with assumptions for combat and reserve after dropping external tanks) was ~ 275mi and then w/150 gal belly tank Jan-Feb 1944) ~ 375mi. In the same time envelope the P-38H w/75 gal tanks in Oct-Nov was 275mi, but in December with 2x150gal tanks ~ 375mi. The Combat Radius discussion greatly overstated late 1943 for P-38 as "500 NM CR was not achieved until the 55ga LE tanks combined with the 2x150 gal externals - March 1944

For clarity regarding the discussion of 'LR' escort missions in the posts above - only the 1943 December/Jan 1944 P-38 AND P-51B could range as far as Hildesheim/Brunswick/Hamburg line - but pretty close to making Schweinfurt had the gamble been necessary.

Ludwigshafen at 410mi, not (quite) an example of deeper strikes to Leipzig (525) and Regensburg (570), air miles from Cambridge - but a distance only the P-47D-16 with 2x150gal combat tanks could achieve in April 1944. By that time the P-4D had been relegated to Penetration/Withdrawal Escort

The "5:1" adverse ratio could easily occur when either side could gain the upper hand with local superiority - the problem with the Article is very poor sourcing and cited references. There were many instances when mechanical failures approached and exceeded 50% returns of the P-38 force that took off. So, for example, Section of P-38s attacking - or being attacked by a Gruppe or combined squadron of escort and ZG units could find itself in numerical trouble easily.

Perhaps the most glaring example of goofy research was the unbelievable 'mislabeling' by the artist Kopp of the P-51B-5-NA (2 examples - tp and bottom) and P-51B-15-NA (middle) as P-51B-5, -10-"NT". NT denotes Dallas manufacture and if correct would have been P-51C

Now to the very confusing Map - which implies that the P-47 had a greater combat radius than the P-38. NO. The Only instance of near equal combat radius is when the P-47 carried a 108 gal belly tank and the P-38 (w/o LE 55 gal tanks) carried 2x75 externals... the 38 typically used 75 gallon until the flood of 150 gal combat tanks arrived in November (tear drop P-38 tank/not 'flat' belly tank for P-47.

What is date and source of the map? Even 'official Maps' produced in 1944 and even post war were flawed with lack of precision regarding internal and external tankage as well as model.

This is what I based the 375 mile radius on. I do not remember where I found it. Its been on my computer for years.

The date maybe optimistic by a month according to this history:

This history is also the source of the chart I posted. I added the text boxes with specific missions and the P-47 combat radius.

I went back to the history to confirm the combat radius of a P-47 with a 108 tank and it indicates 325 miles not 375.

 

[33k in the air]

This is what I based the 375 mile radius on. I do not remember where I found it. Its been on my computer for years.



View attachment 638809

Some time ago I did a Google search and found a variety of maps like the one above. They mostly had similar figures, but there were some differences. Unfortunately, these are all on my other computer which I cannot access at the moment.

View attachment 638812

I have a copy of that report on my other computer. Because the bars are not labeled with numerical values, determining the actual mileage involves some imprecision. I took an image of that graph and threw it into Photoshop, and compared the pixel length of each bar, and then converted that into miles based on the bars with a more confidently known distance.

Alas, that result too is on my other computer.

I really need to get that fixed up so I can get access to all that source data again. . .

 

[drgondog]

This is what I based the 375 mile radius on. I do not remember where I found it. Its been on my computer for years.



View attachment 638809

The date maybe optimistic by a month according to this history:


View attachment 638810


View attachment 638811

This history is also the source of the chart I posted. I added the text boxes with specific missions and the P-47 combat radius.

I went back to the history to confirm the combat radius of a P-47 with a 108 tank and it indicates 325 miles not 375.

View attachment 638812

Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".

Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B. The Mustang shown is P-51B-1 w/o internal 85 gal fuse tank in December 1943; The P-38J depicted from March 1944 for P-38J-15 w/55 gal LE tanks mod to increase internal fuel; The P-47D shown w/2x150 gal is w/305 gal internal and plumbing/pylon kits to equivalent P-47D-16 delivered in March/April.

Also, there is no range 'bar' for P-51B w/269gal internal fuel (incl 85 gal fuse tank), nor 269 gal plus 2x108 gal combat tanks.

 

[drgondog]

Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".

Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B. The Mustang shown is P-51B-1 w/o internal 85 gal fuse tank in December 1943; The P-38J depicted from March 1944 for P-38J-15 w/55 gal LE tanks mod to increase internal fuel; The P-47D shown w/2x150 gal is w/305 gal internal and plumbing/pylon kits to equivalent P-47D-16 delivered in March/April.

Also, there is no range 'bar' for P-51B w/269gal internal fuel (incl 85 gal fuse tank), nor 269 gal plus 2x108 gal combat tanks.

I devoted an entire chapter to this subject in my book.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Dean reproduced AAF Planning docs for Combat Radius in "America's 100,000".

Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B. The Mustang shown is P-51B-1 w/o internal 85 gal fuse tank in December 1943; The P-38J depicted from March 1944 for P-38J-15 w/55 gal LE tanks mod to increase internal fuel; The P-47D shown w/2x150 gal is w/305 gal internal and plumbing/pylon kits to equivalent P-47D-16 delivered in March/April.

Also, there is no range 'bar' for P-51B w/269gal internal fuel (incl 85 gal fuse tank), nor 269 gal plus 2x108 gal combat tanks.

Based on your research what was the maximum radius for a P47 in January 1944?

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I devoted an entire chapter to this subject in my book.

I was unaware that you have a book.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I was unaware that you have a book.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

View attachment 638834

I know what's next in my ordering queue, and I'll certainly buy new to support a forum brotha.

 

[33k in the air]

Based on the bar chart above, the plotted values are a.) not clear about model within Type and for a period in late November 1943 through April 1944 range for P-38/P-47 and P-51B.

Note also it has separate values for 'maximum penetration as target support' and 'maximum penetration in support of bombers.' The latter is the escort range. The source document is, if I recall correctly, an official USAAF one.

 

[GrauGeist]

View attachment 638834

I always liked that shot of Rafferty's "The Iowa Beaut" (shown on the cover)

 

[pbehn]

Arent those curves also dependent on how much the LW had been pushed back as much as how much the range of machines had been increased? In the early days any L/R P-47 drop tanks would have been dropped early, wouldnt they?

 

[drgondog]

Note also it has separate values for 'maximum penetration as target support' and 'maximum penetration in support of bombers.' The latter is the escort range. The source document is, if I recall correctly, an official USAAF one.

The Maximum Penetration is support of Bombers' should be focused primarily on P-47 for R/V and Penetration to 'hand-off' for Target Support' escort - with the reverse - R/V with Target Support to relieve them, and then perform Withdrawal Support to some point near the Holland/France coast.

One should recall that no 8th AF course for an attack deep in Germany was a straight line and that 'Combat Radius should be tempered with this understanding. Also recall that P-47s escorting an assigned box of bombers was effectively moving at the same speed as the bombers - all the while Essing at higher cruise speed - whereas the Target escort had much more latitude flying a straight line at high cruise to the R/V point (usually close to the IP for mid-long range) - otherwise, if VLR Target Escort, then fly to a distant R/V (like Berlin area for an attack in Poland) and pick up their assigned boxes and Ess with them same as P-47 to provide 'local hand holding'.

 

[drgondog]

Arent those curves also dependent on how much the LW had been pushed back as much as how much the range of machines had been increased? In the early days any L/R P-47 drop tanks would have been dropped early, wouldnt they?

The only tanks dropped early were the 200/205 gal un-pressurized C/L Ferry tank somewhere 18K - often with half a tank of fuel remaining. Otherwise drop when attacked. BTW that is why ALL Combat Radius charts are prepared based o longest datum for which a fight and return flight home is solely on internal fuel available.

 

[33k in the air]

One should recall that no 8th AF course for an attack deep in Germany was a straight line and that 'Combat Radius should be tempered with this understanding.

There is a USAAF Bomb Group website (303rd, if I recall correctly) which has viewable mission documents from some of the missions which include the route maps. Measuring some of these revealed that the 'as flown' flight route was sometimes 40% or more than the straight line 'as the crow flies' distance.