It is actually true - this did happen. Both Park and Dowding ordered it on separate occasions. One instance was on 19 July 1940, Park ordered that of the squadrons sent up to intercept Stukas attacking a convoy off Dover the Spit ones, comprising aircraft from 65 and 610 Sqns were sent up high to deal with the escorting Bf 109s (of JG 51) and the Hurricanes of 32 and 615 Sqns to deal with the Stukas down low. Didn't quite work out that way, but the order was placed.
Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SaparotRob
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It is actually true - this did happen. Both Park and Dowding ordered it on separate occasions. One instance was on 19 July 1940, Park ordered that of the squadrons sent up to intercept Stukas attacking a convoy off Dover the Spit ones, comprising aircraft from 65 and 610 Sqns were sent up high to deal with the escorting Bf 109s (of JG 51) and the Hurricanes of 32 and 615 Sqns to deal with the Stukas down low. Didn't quite work out that way, but the order was placed.
It is equally true that on some occasions things were the other way around and on the vast majority of occasions squadrons or part squadrons were placed where they were regardless of aircraft type.
Correct and good assessment of the Comet pressurisation failures. One issue that isn't always regularly mentioned is that the Comets were pressurised at lower altitudes (don't know exactly what) and that this contributed to structural weakness because of greater pressure. Today, airliners' cabin altitudes are higher (depending on airline SOPs of course), around 8,000 ft.
This is the exact same window as the one that failed on G-ALYU, the airframe placed in the water filled test rig at Farnborough.
Here is a rather small copy of the original image from 'YU at Farnborough illustrating the failure.
comet_p5a.jpg (280×196) (rafmuseum.org.uk)
From here: Comet Failure | Comet - The World's First Jet Airliner | Comet - The World's First Jet Airliner | Archive Exhibitions | Exhibitions & Displays | Research | RAF Museum
The pic above's from the Comet Ia fuselage F-BGNX at the DH Aviation Heritage Centre, London Colney, Herts. In this image, the window is the foremost passenger window and was the LH forward emergency exit.
Of course, but the common belief is that the order to vector Spits to the escorts and Hurris to the bombers was a myth, but it wasn't, and, as I mentioned, it didn't always work out in practise that way.
Erhardt Milch reckoned that had the Me 262 gotten into service before 1943 was out it could win the war. Of course we know that it would end with a nuclear weapon in late 1945 rather than early 1945 but certainly in 1943 it would have completely disrupted American daylight operations and chased the mosquito pathfinders and recons out of the sky before the invasion.
The claim that Hitler delayed the me 262 seems to have originated with Adolf Galland who wanted to focus the Me 262 on air superiority.
The Me 262 moved along at its own pace. When presented to Hitler, probably in 1942, he enthusiastically supported the program which helped its progression considerably. He did ask 'can it be used as a bomber' and was told yes it could' and that sealed his support. Hitler from that took it would enter service as a JABO or fighter-bomber. He wanted to use it to attack the upcoming allied invasion and to strike back at Britain to take back the initiative. He didn't want it exclusively as a fighter-bomber just that some of them could just like the Me 109 and Fw 190 be used in that way.
When the invasion came and he asked about it he found out that pretty much nothing had been done in that regard. Of course no Me 262 was in service, neither fighter or fighter bomber mainly because the engines just weren't mature yet so it didn't matter much as far as preventing the invasion went Prototype Ar 234 did fly missions over Normandy straight from the test grounds and provided the Germans the first indication of the size of the landings over Cherbourg. I have no doubt attention would have turned to bombing from the Me 262 once the fighter version was up but that's not what Hitler wanted. He wanted them simultaneously and scheduled simultaneously.
Hitler, upset that his orders had been apparently ignored, suspended the program as a fighter (they could work on the bomber) and wouldn't talk on the topic until someone known for their congenial nature could talk to him. That may have delayed the airframe a little but certainly not much given the engine issues.
Had the Fuherers request for it to be a blitz bomber as well been acted upon even the Me 262 fighter may have had airbrakes when it did enter service and that would greatly have improved its performance as a fighter. Split flaps likely.
Bombing from the Me 262 required either the TSA 2D toss bombing sight (aimed in a shallow dive) or would need to be by a blind bombing system such as EGON, Zyklops or Neuling (installed at the end of the war). The Luftwaffe did delay the earlier TSA 2 bomb sight in order to get the TSA 2D and I wonder if that was a good move. Either way the sight was in service for opperational testing with KG51.
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Which invasion? Was that the French invading France? The 262 started to be introduced in April 1944.
Check your facts. You are off by at least 7 months in the case of fully operational squadrons and 3 months in terms of test squadrons that formed in July and that was confident enough to try an semi successful intercept on a recon Mosquito on July 25th 1944. In reality the hollow bladed Jumo 004B4 that made reliability more tollerable wasn't reaching squadrons till November 1944. If you think about it wouldn't we be hearing of Me 262 over the beaches of Normandy if the Me 262 was operational in April 1944 and the Overlord landings were on June the 6th. (2 months latter).
Its not worth me engaging with you on non technical issues and only leads us to go off topic.
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On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a corps of pilots to fly it.
Indeed but EK210 formed to test the Me 210 were flying Me 110 during the BoB developing slide bombing tactics. Forming the squadron doesn't mean they are operational and seeking contact with the enemy hence the delays.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Ar234 made high-speed recon passes over the Normandy landings.
The Me262's projected production in 1942 was hampered by the problems with the BMW003 and the switch to the Jumo004 proved to be no better BUT it was in 1943 when Hitler's insistence the 262 be a Schnell bomber threw a wrench into the works.
The original design was the Me262A-1a, a heavy fighter, not a bomber. Not a mixed use type and so on.
The Me262A-2a was a revision of the A-1a (obviously, by the variant designation) and the shift to the Schnell bomber production detracted from the original production window.
Uncle Adolph knew the Ar234 was coming close to production at the same time as the Me262, but he had to get into the middle of things (as usual) and as it was, the Ar234 saw action before the 262.
Add to that, the Hs132, which was a dedicated bomber from the start, saw delays because of the engine issues, would have been a bolster to the Ar234.
The engine issues can all point back to the RLM's mandate that jet engine development was not a priority (courtesy of the fat bastard Goering) and as a result, the He280 fell by the wayside, the Me262 and Ar234 struggled into being and the He132 never had a chance.
Which, to be 100% honest, is fine by me - had Germany taken advantage of the tremendous opportunity they had over the Allies early on, would have completely changed the face of the airwar over Europe - at the cost of more Allied lives.
The Me262's projected production in 1942 was hampered by the problems with the BMW003 and the switch to the Jumo004 proved to be no better BUT it was in 1943 when Hitler's insistence the 262 be a Schnell bomber threw a wrench into the works.
The original design was the Me262A-1a, a heavy fighter, not a bomber. Not a mixed use type and so on.
The Me262A-2a was a revision of the A-1a (obviously, by the variant designation) and the shift to the Schnell bomber production detracted from the original production window.
Uncle Adolph knew the Ar234 was coming close to production at the same time as the Me262, but he had to get into the middle of things (as usual) and as it was, the Ar234 saw action before the 262.
Add to that, the Hs132, which was a dedicated bomber from the start, saw delays because of the engine issues, would have been a bolster to the Ar234.
The engine issues can all point back to the RLM's mandate that jet engine development was not a priority (courtesy of the fat bastard Goering) and as a result, the He280 fell by the wayside, the Me262 and Ar234 struggled into being and the He132 never had a chance.
Which, to be 100% honest, is fine by me - had Germany taken advantage of the tremendous opportunity they had over the Allies early on, would have completely changed the face of the airwar over Europe - at the cost of more Allied lives.
The LW had many aircraft in service in June 1944, very few were seen in Normandy above the landing sites, the 262 would just be another. Any airfield in France where they were stationed would immediately become the number one target for allied bombers. It is easy to construct fantasy scenarios about what thousands of 262s or others would do but you cant stop thousands of tanks with cannon armed aircraft.
As it was the Luftwaffe didn't feel comfortable engaging an enemy aircraft till July 25 1944, 6 weeks after the invasion, and that was an unarmed PRU Mosquito over German territory where the 262 might not be captured. It ended inclusively with possibly 1 hit by the Me 262 though the bomb bay door that had blown of the Mosquito may just as likely have done so due to manoeuvring. Since he saw parts flying of the Me 262 its pilot claimed a kill.
Lets consider what might have been achieved had Adolph Hitler expectation been carried out:
1 Bomb racks would be fitted to the Me 262. These would latter become useful as drop tank positions greatly increasing the Me 262's range as an escort or reconnaissance aircraft.
That would have avoided Hitler's ire and he would be forced to accept the aircraft was not yet ready.
It could bomb using electronic blind bombing systems. (Fw 190F did use these) but that doesn't attack an invasion fleet.
2 If fitted with a fighter bomber REVI reflector sight it might use the same technique the Me 109 used which is to set a second reticule on the REVI and then at the correct range or altitude pull up until the second reticule crossed the target and release the bomb. The pilot would either set an alarm in the altimeter or use the stedometric range finder in the sight to estimate range.
3 This didn't work well in an Me 262 which tended to get in trouble with Dr Mach forcing the aircraft to slow down to attempt to bomb. The Me 262 bomber would thus need air brakes.
4 Alternatively a toss bombing sight like the TSA 2D might be fitted. This used a precision barometric altimeter or alternatively FuG 101a radio altimeter) in combination with an accelerometer to automatically release the bombs in the pullup at the correct time. All the pilot need to is line up his gun sight and pull up and the bomb sight released at the correct point.
In my view both the TSA 2D and the air brakes would be needed.
So if Hitler orders had of been carried out we might have seen an Me 262 with fittings for a bomb and drop tank.
We might even have seen it with air brakes, as a separate line.
Both would improve it as a fighter and a long range reconnaissance aircraft.
The reality is however the aircraft wouldn't have been ready on June 6 1944 either way and the important TSA 2D bomb sight probably not.
However if the Me 262 had of been in the operational state it was in November 1944 only in May 1944.
1 Reconnaissance Me 262 would have a dramatic effect on the conduct of German campaign even before the Allies landed.
2 Me 262 fighters might have strafed ground targets or assisted Fw 190 and Me 109 in attacking. 100 Me 262 would make little difference.
3 The few JABO Me 262 would have limited capability since without the TSA 2D bomb sight and air brakes they needed to slow down to attack. (TSA assigned to KG51 about Jan 1945)
I thought the Me-262's already had some bomb-rack carrying capability, and that he merely wanted more. The fact that the pylons couldn't be plumbed for drop-tank carriage is strange (you said later fitted), as the Luftwaffe were among the first to use drop-tanks.
As for blind-bombing systems, I never knew the LW used them.
I thought all operational variants had brakes fitted already? It seems like it would have been hard to control in combat with engines that responded somewhat slowly.
I always thought toss-bombing produced poor accuracy. I remember reading in the Cold War that the accuracy positively sucked and it was difficult to plunk bombs within 1500' of the intended target.
You thought very wrongly.
Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
I posted a hit chart for the TSA 2D somewhere here.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
No, the Me262's original design and pre-production design was for a heavy fighter/interceptor.
With the change to the Me262A-2a variant, a suitable location for the two bomb hardpoints had to be determined, the frame reinforced for the mounting and then two of the four MK108 cannon removed to compensate for the weight of the bombs.
And tthe Me262 never had dive/speed brakes.
When did they fit speed-brakes to the aircraft? Also, how long did it take for the Jumo 004 to spool up. I've heard numbers from 25-45 seconds.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
You might be thinking of the Gloster Meteor. That had airbrakes from the beginning iirc.
I'm just wondering about a 262 vs Mosquito encounter at high altitude. Just how much thrust did the 262 have up there? It seems to me it would be very much straight and level only whereas the Mosquito, especially with a two-stage Merlin, would be more able to turn and avoid the attack. A Mosquito which saw the 262 coming might stand a fair chance.
