Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

GrauGeist said:

Quite right - let me be more specific, then:
Was that 30k on a waning moon, and somewhere between afternoon tea and high tea?

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I think they used a Tiffin correction factor, cross referenced to Wisden batting averages.

pbehn said:

I think they used a Tiffin correction factor, cross referenced to Wisden batting averages.

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Ahh...ok.
It's all making much more sense, now

P-39 Expert said:

Finally "but those better-performing (P-39) variants arrived after other designs were already in service" is the main myth that I am trying to expose. The P-39 was available at the beginning of the U.S. involvement in WWII. And the much improved models with uprated engines (N) were available from the fall of 1942 just as the P-38F/G was entering combat and well before the P-47, P-51B/C/D, F4U and Hellcat entered combat. Performance was on par with the 109G and FW190A and vastly superior to the A6M2, A6M5 and Ki-43. These are facts as borne out by Wright Field tests and results from the main users, the Soviets.

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Using WWII Aircraft Performance performance tests such as these?

Report on flight tests of Bell P-39M-3 airplane at the manufacturer's plant.

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Report on flight tests of Bell P-39N-1 airplane at the manuacturer's plant.

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Report on climb and take-off tests of Bell P-39N-1 airplane at the manuacturer's plant.

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buffnut453 said:

Apparently all Brits are liars, cheats and all round dishonest operators.

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Well, the Brits always play the baddies in movies...

P-39 Expert said:

They sure did refuse to pay for the P-38 Lightning equipped as they specified it.

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They received 3 Lightning Is.

They tested the first Lightning I they received and found it to be shite. So they said "send no more of this specification".

They still had several hundred Lightning IIs on order.

They received 1, the rest being taken by the USAAF. This is because by the time the Lightning II was getting into production something had happened at Pearl Harbor.


Also, there seems to be some doubt whether turbo were allowed for export when the original French/British orders for the Lightning were placed.

Also, Also, I imagine that the British paid for aircraft they received. 4 Lightnings in all.

You must remember that when the P-38 and P-39 were ordered by the British neither were anywhere near to production models. The performance promised was nothing more than estimates at that time. And no doubt the contracts had an out clause if the aircraft did not match the specified performance.

nuuumannn said:

Well, the Brits always play the baddies in movies...

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I thought that was zee Germans.

wuzak said:

They received 3 Lightning Is.

They tested the first Lightning I they received and found it to be shite. So they said "send no more of this specification".

They still had several hundred Lightning IIs on order.

They received 1, the rest being taken by the USAAF. This is because by the time the Lightning II was getting into production something had happened at Pearl Harbor.


Also, there seems to be some doubt whether turbo were allowed for export when the original French/British orders for the Lightning were placed.

Also, Also, I imagine that the British paid for aircraft they received. 4 Lightnings in all.

You must remember that when the P-38 and P-39 were ordered by the British neither were anywhere near to production models. The performance promised was nothing more than estimates at that time. And no doubt the contracts had an out clause if the aircraft did not match the specified performance.

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I just read yesterday that the materials that were needed for turbos were in short supply at the time, so allocation of "turbos" as such may not have been banned for export so much as banned for fighters. Its complicated. What isnt complicated is the discussion of 3 fighters cost. By the time the Lightning II arrived in UK it was part of a mutual agreement for testing and evaluation AFAK and of much more value to the USA than UK, what do you do with one aircraft? What happened to it?

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I thought that was zee Germans.

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Dont you watch US crime drama? The criminal is almost always a British actor from RADA (the acting school all rich people send their delinquent kids to). If it isnt a British actor wot dun it, its someone who smokes.

pbehn said:

Dont you watch US crime drama? The criminal is almost always a British actor from RADA (the acting school all rich people send their delinquent kids to). If it isnt a British actor wot dun it, its someone who smokes.

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DerAdlerIstGelandet believe it or believe it not, I only had two translators in China, both were self taught and both had noticed the same, they asked me why it was. As if I would know I dont work in the US TV movie industry and have only spent 2 hrs in USA (stop overs in Anchorage)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I thought that was zee Germans.

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Only the Nazis, apparently they're as bad as the British! (That was a joke, by the way)

Very Inteeeresting.

The timing of the P-39 contracts and the P-38 contracts don't work well for the British deliberately screwing things up to get out of the contract story.

As has been pointed out more than once the British took over the French order.

The French were in talks by Feb/March of 1940 if not before, the British were not, at least that I have seen accounts of.
There was a lot of to and fro about what was going to be allowed to be exported and what was not.

From Page 116 of "Cobra, Bell aircraft corporation by Birch Mathews.
" Harry Collins wired Larry Bell on 2 April 1940 confirming the fact that Bell Aircraft could " conduct preliminary conversations with the Anglo-French Purchasing Board concerning export of the P-39 designed to War Department Specifications."
Bolding by me. I interpret this to mean that the items exported cannot deviate too far from the same item/ either purchased by or ordered by the War department.
The US had gotten badly burned in WW I when it declared war and most of it's factories capable of making weapons of war were tooled up for French and British equipment (and ammunition) which the US War Dept. did not want. They were not going to let it happen again. The US turned down all requests by the British to make British designed tanks in the US for instance. The US would sell tanks with a British designed turret but that was as far as they would go.
This is background, take it as you will.


The French sign orders on April 10th and Larry Bell gets a $2 million dollars check, saving Bell aircraft from near bankruptcy. The French and Bell had reached agreement on the detail model specifications in March. This included the wing guns. This is well before the P-39C is completed. The P-39Cs had been ordered in Aug of 1939 but actual construction would not start until the fall of 1940 and first completed plane didn't fly until Jan 1941.

Back to 1940, The Germans attack May 10th, one month after the French order 165 P-39/P-400s.

France signs the Surrender/Armistice papers June 25th.

Britain, as per agreements had taken over ALL outstanding French contracts. By July 10th 1940 a revised specification is agreed to by Bell and the British to include such things as British supplied guns and equipment instead of the French equipment. The revised specification includes 5 more aircraft, total of 170.

On Sept 14th the US Army revises it's contract with Bell for 80 P-39Cs, none which are even close to completion. The first 20 will be completed to the original specification (Aug 1939).
the remaining 60 will get self sealing fuel tanks and be called P-39Ds. This is one day AFTER the Army orders 394 P-39Ds with self sealing tanks, armor and four .30s in the wings.

The British and Bell agree to a new specification on Jan 3rd 1941, still for 170 planes. differences don't seem to be noted?

Next British specification is dated 20th of June 1941 and brings the order to 675 airframes, please note that this is almost 3 months after Lend Lease was signed into Law.
If the British didn't want to pay for 505 P-400s, then don't order them in June of 1941, they were only on the hook for 170 up until then.

The First P-400 flew in April of 1941. Serial number AH570, it was used for general handling trials, the performance trials would be carried out with AH571 which was the extensively modified plane. It first flew at the end of April 1941.

What is somewhat interesting is that three P-39Cs were sent to England, arriving at the beginning of July 1941 as part of lend lease. They were training/familiarization rather than combat. However from Joe Baugher's web site.
"The first of these P-39Cs actually arrived at RAF Colerne on July 3, 1941, followed by the other two the next day. It made its first test flight in England on July 6. However, during trials at Duxford, the performance proved disappointing. Although the test pilots praised the general ease of handling of the aircraft, the maximum speed was a shocking 33 mph lower than that anticipated. The fighter proved to be definitely inferior to the Hurricane and Spitfire in climb rate and ceiling, and the 750-yard takeoff run of the Airacobra excluded its operation from some smaller fighter airfields. There was universal shock and dismay among the RAF personnel. What had gone wrong?"
Remember that this was the P-39C with no armor, no self sealing fuel tanks, no wing guns (but two .30 cal guns in the cowl) No IFF.

So when did the British specify all the "junk" to get out of the cash contract so they could get free airplanes?

nuuumannn said:

Well, the Brits always play the baddies in movies...

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Perfidious Albion!

Would someone smash that trope in the face with a piece of heavy machinery already? It's lazy thinking.

wuzak said:

Also, there seems to be some doubt whether turbo were allowed for export when the original French/British orders for the Lightning were placed.

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My understanding is that all turbocharged engines were forbidden for export.

If I'm wrong, I will welcome solid correction.

Shortround6 said:

What is somewhat interesting is that three P-39Cs were sent to England, arriving at the beginning of July 1941 as part of lend lease. They were training/familiarization rather than combat.

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I think the P-39 story changed completely once the Germans invaded Russia on 22 June 1940. A team of Russian experts arrived in UK at sometime in UK to familiarise with the P-39 and although 601 squadron only did a few sorties with the P-39 they didnt officially give them up until the beginning of the next year. The lease lend training and familiarisation scheme being for Russian pilots and engineers for they latest P-39 type being made as far as I can see.

nuuumannn said:

Only the Nazis, apparently they're as bad as the British! (That was a joke, by the way)

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Let me see your Paperz.

Achso, you have no Paperz.

pbehn said:

I think the P-39 story changed completely once the Germans invaded Russia on 22 June 1940. A team of Russian experts arrived in UK at sometime in UK to familiarise with the P-39 and although 601 squadron only did a few sorties with the P-39 they didnt officially give them up until the beginning of the next year. The lease lend training and familiarisation scheme being for Russian pilots and engineers for they latest P-39 type being made as far as I can see.

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You meant 1941?

Thumpalumpacus said:

My understanding is that all turbocharged engines were forbidden for export.

If I'm wrong, I will welcome solid correction.

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At some point that changed, since the bulk of British P-38 orders were to be the Lightning II, with the turbo. The change in the order from all Lightning Is to 2/3+ Lightning IIs occurred before the Lightning I made it to Britain. Maybe that was the point when turbos were allowed for export?

This is WAY past an exercise in futility. It's almost as bad as a P-39!

Maybe I shouldn't have said that ... but, hey, call it what it is.

wuzak said:

At some point that changed, since the bulk of British P-38 orders were to be the Lightning II, with the turbo. The change in the order from all Lightning Is to 2/3+ Lightning IIs occurred before the Lightning I made it to Britain. Maybe that was the point when turbos were allowed for export?

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I had no idea turbos were ever cleared for export. I have held the impression that their export was forbidden. If that's wrong, I'm all ears -- school me.