Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

[wuzak]

I had no idea turbos were ever cleared for export. I have held the impression that their export was forbidden. If that's wrong, I'm all ears -- school me.

Well, the RAF received B-17Cs (Fortress I) with turbos in 1941 under Lend Lease.

 

[ThomasP]

The RAF also eventually received over 800x P-47Ds, beginning in 1944.

 

[wuzak]

And the bulk of the order for P-38s were for the turbocharged Lightning II.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The timing of the P-39 contracts and the P-38 contracts don't work well for the British deliberately screwing things up to get out of the contract story.

As has been pointed out more than once the British took over the French order.

The French were in talks by Feb/March of 1940 if not before, the British were not, at least that I have seen accounts of.
There was a lot of to and fro about what was going to be allowed to be exported and what was not.

From Page 116 of "Cobra, Bell aircraft corporation by Birch Mathews.
" Harry Collins wired Larry Bell on 2 April 1940 confirming the fact that Bell Aircraft could " conduct preliminary conversations with the Anglo-French Purchasing Board concerning export of the P-39 designed to War Department Specifications."
Bolding by me. I interpret this to mean that the items exported cannot deviate too far from the same item/ either purchased by or ordered by the War department.
The US had gotten badly burned in WW I when it declared war and most of it's factories capable of making weapons of war were tooled up for French and British equipment (and ammunition) which the US War Dept. did not want. They were not going to let it happen again. The US turned down all requests by the British to make British designed tanks in the US for instance. The US would sell tanks with a British designed turret but that was as far as they would go.
This is background, take it as you will.


The French sign orders on April 10th and Larry Bell gets a $2 million dollars check, saving Bell aircraft from near bankruptcy. The French and Bell had reached agreement on the detail model specifications in March. This included the wing guns. This is well before the P-39C is completed. The P-39Cs had been ordered in Aug of 1939 but actual construction would not start until the fall of 1940 and first completed plane didn't fly until Jan 1941.

Back to 1940, The Germans attack May 10th, one month after the French order 165 P-39/P-400s.

France signs the Surrender/Armistice papers June 25th.

Britain, as per agreements had taken over ALL outstanding French contracts. By July 10th 1940 a revised specification is agreed to by Bell and the British to include such things as British supplied guns and equipment instead of the French equipment. The revised specification includes 5 more aircraft, total of 170.

On Sept 14th the US Army revises it's contract with Bell for 80 P-39Cs, none which are even close to completion. The first 20 will be completed to the original specification (Aug 1939).
the remaining 60 will get self sealing fuel tanks and be called P-39Ds. This is one day AFTER the Army orders 394 P-39Ds with self sealing tanks, armor and four .30s in the wings.

The British and Bell agree to a new specification on Jan 3rd 1941, still for 170 planes. differences don't seem to be noted?

Next British specification is dated 20th of June 1941 and brings the order to 675 airframes, please note that this is almost 3 months after Lend Lease was signed into Law.
If the British didn't want to pay for 505 P-400s, then don't order them in June of 1941, they were only on the hook for 170 up until then.

The First P-400 flew in April of 1941. Serial number AH570, it was used for general handling trials, the performance trials would be carried out with AH571 which was the extensively modified plane. It first flew at the end of April 1941.

What is somewhat interesting is that three P-39Cs were sent to England, arriving at the beginning of July 1941 as part of lend lease. They were training/familiarization rather than combat. However from Joe Baugher's web site.
"The first of these P-39Cs actually arrived at RAF Colerne on July 3, 1941, followed by the other two the next day. It made its first test flight in England on July 6. However, during trials at Duxford, the performance proved disappointing. Although the test pilots praised the general ease of handling of the aircraft, the maximum speed was a shocking 33 mph lower than that anticipated. The fighter proved to be definitely inferior to the Hurricane and Spitfire in climb rate and ceiling, and the 750-yard takeoff run of the Airacobra excluded its operation from some smaller fighter airfields. There was universal shock and dismay among the RAF personnel. What had gone wrong?"
Remember that this was the P-39C with no armor, no self sealing fuel tanks, no wing guns (but two .30 cal guns in the cowl) No IFF.

So when did the British specify all the "junk" to get out of the cash contract so they could get free airplanes?

The P-39C tested in the US had a top speed of 379mph and climb rate of 3720fpm at sea level, better than either the Spitfire V or Hurricane. It weighed 7075lbs and would have weighed 7150lbs with self sealing tanks, (reduced) armor plate and glass and 120gal internal fuel. Configured as the British wanted with a 20mm cannon it would weigh 7030lbs. The 3 P-39Cs sent to England in July of 1041 must have weighed more possibly equipped with self sealing tanks and armor specified by the British. P-39C production ended in March 1941 and those 3 were sent to England in July, plenty of time to update them. Joe Baugher doesn't list the weights for the 3 P-39Cs sent to England in July.

The P-400 tested in the US had a top speed of 371mph. Certainly not 400mph but comparable to the Spitfire V.

As far as the "shock and dismay", the British knew that a 7850lb P-39 wouldn't make the performance guarantee, that's why they had them configured that way. They didn't need them after the BoB and didn't want to pay for them.

 

[P-39 Expert]

For a few posts we had a reasonable discussion but now we're back to normal. The gas heater was standard equipment on the P-39C that immediately preceded the P-400, AND it was standard equipment on the P-39D1 and D2 which immediately followed the P-400. And yet it was those perfidious Brits who deliberately specified the gas heater to add unnecessary weight to the aircraft.

Then we have the incredibly dismissive attitude to an official combat report that was filed by the man leading an entire Spitfire squadron on operations at 30K feet. Apparently, that experienced combat veteran was over claiming his altitude….but, as usual, no rationale for such a ridiculous claim is made. He was just incompetent and couldn't read an altimeter (but he could lead a fighter squadron into combat…and score kills).

This really is beyond the pale. If any Brit made such a claim about an American pilot, they'd be kicked off the forum. Apparently all Brits are liars, cheats and all round dishonest operators.

Find a few more reports of BoB Spitfires or Hurricanes getting to 30000'. So far you only have the one. A very rare occurrence.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Well, the Brits always play the baddies in movies...

Or Romans.

 

[pbehn]

Find a few more reports of BoB Spitfires or Hurricanes getting to 30000'. So far you only have the one. A very rare occurrence.

How many do you need? Why are you the arbiter of "common occurrence"? You said never, so you detail all the operations and their altitudes, you dont have a group of minions here to jump about at your behest, you were wrong. Most of October 1940 daylight operations in the BoB were high level Jabo attacks with escorts and interceptors going up to and over 30,000 ft. It has already been explained before many times.

 

[Peter Gunn]

How many do you need? Why are you the arbiter of "common occurrence"? You said never, so you detail all the operations and their altitudes, you dont have a group of minions here to jump about at your behest, you were wrong. Most of October 1940 daylight operations in the BoB were high level Jabo attacks with escorts and interceptors going up to and over 30,000 ft. It has already been explained before many times.

And the mystery swirling around my resorting to snark is finally solved.

 

[pbehn]

And the mystery swirling around my resorting to snark is finally solved.

When I posted there were 2,600 sorties he wanted all the specific altitudes. Test reports of Spitfires at 34,000ft are ignored. Pilots reports of encounters are dismissed as "it was Joe Pilot". We now have some pilot credibility scale that seems to say if Chuck Yeager didnt see it it didnt happen.

 

[Juha3]

Find a few more reports of BoB Spitfires or Hurricanes getting to 30000'. So far you only have the one. A very rare occurrence.

A 2nd one, on 12 Oct 1940, Flt Lt Green from No 421 Flight while flying a Spit IIA at 30,000 ft was attacked by Bf 109Es from JG 52 and shot down. Not at 30,000 ft but not much lower, on 15 Oct 1940, Sgt Lee from No 421 Flight while patrolling in a Spit IIA at 27,000 ft, claimed a Bf 109E

 

[pbehn]

From this very forum, the subject of Spitfires and Bf109s commonly being at 30,000ft is now closed.

This Day in the Battle of Britain

I'd say the second photo is the real one. You can see the shadows of the hurricanes on the ground wile in the first pic there are no shadows and something doesn't look quite right where the Hurricane on the left is in front of the buildings..

ww2aircraft.net

Post #269 3 Oct
Massed fighter-bomber formations began very early and, climbing above 30,000 ft, they attacked south-east London and Biggin Hill for most of the morning. Some smaller waves in the afternoon again penetrated as far as central London. Bf109s operated at a high altitude over south-east England with a mixture of fighter and fighter-bomber variants bombing London before the RAF could react.
Post #276 7 Oct
Two attacks were flown at a high altitude and with the RAF unable to intercept, flew unmolested to drop bombs on BBC House, the RAF's Adastral House, the War Office and Charing Cross Station, along with residential areas in Bermondsey, Lewisham and West Ham. Tower Bridge was attacked at approximately 0900 hours and the hydraulic mains were damaged, and the bridge was out of action.
Post #280 10 Oct
From 1100 hours raids of 20 to 30 aircraft crossed the Kent coast at high altitude and reached southern areas of London. These raids were made throughout the day by bomb carrying Bf109s and proved difficult to intercept by fighter Command. Spitfires of RAF No. 92 Sqn had been scrambled from Biggin Hill to patrol at high altitudes in order to meet such raids and succeeded at about 1230 hours when they engaged Bf109s of JG 51 over Kent. Sgt E.T.G.Frith from RAF No. 92 Sqn was badly burned when he baled out of his Spitfire I (X4597) following combat with Bf 109s near Ashford, Kent at 1250 hours. He died from his injuries on the 17 October 1940. The East Ham Memorial Hospital was hit, involving some casualties, and some damage was done to communications and dock-side property.

Post# 281 11 Oct
At 1000 hours two raids of about 30 Bf109s crossed over Kent, of which one was intercepted by Spitfires of RAF No. 603 Squadron scrambled from Hornchurch. Maj. Adolf Galland of Stab/JG 26 claimed a Spitfire near Eastchurch for his 42nd victory. Hastings was attacked twice, at 0644 hours when 14 HE bombs fell in the residential area demolishing four houses, and at 1215 hours when further civil damage was done. Brighton, Eastbourne and Bexhill were also attacked, but only superficial damage resulted.
The last main attack of the day consisting of 65+ aircraft, crossed the Kent coast just after 1500 hours and headed for London. Hurricanes of RAF Nos. 73, 229, 249, 253, 257, 303 and 615 Squadrons along with Spitfires of RAF Nos. 41, 66, 72, 92 and 602 Squadrons were scrambled to intercept the raid. Although both Hurricanes and Spitfires were dispatched, only the Spitfires were able to reach the altitude of the Messerschmitts and even then were are at a disadvantage with the German fighters still above them. One formation of German bombers split into two sections with one heading to London and the other to the South-west. The second wave of over 80 came inland over Deal and Dover at 1525 hours. Few contacts were made, targets were not found and slight damage was reported. No 12 Group despatched three Squadrons to assist in meeting this attack.

Post#282 12 Oct UNITED KINGDOM:
Many of the raids made on this Friday consisted of bomb carrying Bf109s, which saw the first combat of the day involving Spitfires of RAF No: 72 Squadron, scrambled from Biggin Hill to protect a convoy, at about 0800 hours off Deal. Six bomb carrying Bf 109s crossed the Channel and caused little damage. Fighters and fighter-bombers continued to use stream tactics, generally at 30,000 to 35,000 ft where they were difficult to counter. Hptm. Heinz Bretnütz and Oblt. Gerhard Michalski from Stab II./JG 53 each claimed a Spitfire at 0855 hours.

 

[buffnut453]

Find a few more reports of BoB Spitfires or Hurricanes getting to 30000'. So far you only have the one. A very rare occurrence.

I actually found 2 - you're ignoring the Magee citation - and one of them was for an entire squadron. It took me about 5 mins of googling to find them. I don't have all my references because I've been on a business trip for a week now…so maybe you can do some research yourself and stop trotting out an unsupported opinion? But that would involve trying to learn rather than simply cherry-picking from posts to persist an argument.

I note you've assiduously ignored (again) my other comments so do you accept that the gas heater was a standard fit on the P-39 and wasn't a special requirement by the Brits?

 

[P-39 Expert]

From this very forum, the subject of Spitfires and Bf109s commonly being at 30,000ft is now closed.

This Day in the Battle of Britain

I'd say the second photo is the real one. You can see the shadows of the hurricanes on the ground wile in the first pic there are no shadows and something doesn't look quite right where the Hurricane on the left is in front of the buildings..

ww2aircraft.net

Post #269 3 Oct
Massed fighter-bomber formations began very early and, climbing above 30,000 ft, they attacked south-east London and Biggin Hill for most of the morning. Some smaller waves in the afternoon again penetrated as far as central London. Bf109s operated at a high altitude over south-east England with a mixture of fighter and fighter-bomber variants bombing London before the RAF could react.
Post #276 7 Oct
Two attacks were flown at a high altitude and with the RAF unable to intercept, flew unmolested to drop bombs on BBC House, the RAF's Adastral House, the War Office and Charing Cross Station, along with residential areas in Bermondsey, Lewisham and West Ham. Tower Bridge was attacked at approximately 0900 hours and the hydraulic mains were damaged, and the bridge was out of action.
Post #280 10 Oct
From 1100 hours raids of 20 to 30 aircraft crossed the Kent coast at high altitude and reached southern areas of London. These raids were made throughout the day by bomb carrying Bf109s and proved difficult to intercept by fighter Command. Spitfires of RAF No. 92 Sqn had been scrambled from Biggin Hill to patrol at high altitudes in order to meet such raids and succeeded at about 1230 hours when they engaged Bf109s of JG 51 over Kent. Sgt E.T.G.Frith from RAF No. 92 Sqn was badly burned when he baled out of his Spitfire I (X4597) following combat with Bf 109s near Ashford, Kent at 1250 hours. He died from his injuries on the 17 October 1940. The East Ham Memorial Hospital was hit, involving some casualties, and some damage was done to communications and dock-side property.

Post# 281 11 Oct
At 1000 hours two raids of about 30 Bf109s crossed over Kent, of which one was intercepted by Spitfires of RAF No. 603 Squadron scrambled from Hornchurch. Maj. Adolf Galland of Stab/JG 26 claimed a Spitfire near Eastchurch for his 42nd victory. Hastings was attacked twice, at 0644 hours when 14 HE bombs fell in the residential area demolishing four houses, and at 1215 hours when further civil damage was done. Brighton, Eastbourne and Bexhill were also attacked, but only superficial damage resulted.
The last main attack of the day consisting of 65+ aircraft, crossed the Kent coast just after 1500 hours and headed for London. Hurricanes of RAF Nos. 73, 229, 249, 253, 257, 303 and 615 Squadrons along with Spitfires of RAF Nos. 41, 66, 72, 92 and 602 Squadrons were scrambled to intercept the raid. Although both Hurricanes and Spitfires were dispatched, only the Spitfires were able to reach the altitude of the Messerschmitts and even then were are at a disadvantage with the German fighters still above them. One formation of German bombers split into two sections with one heading to London and the other to the South-west. The second wave of over 80 came inland over Deal and Dover at 1525 hours. Few contacts were made, targets were not found and slight damage was reported. No 12 Group despatched three Squadrons to assist in meeting this attack.

Post#282 12 Oct UNITED KINGDOM:
Many of the raids made on this Friday consisted of bomb carrying Bf109s, which saw the first combat of the day involving Spitfires of RAF No: 72 Squadron, scrambled from Biggin Hill to protect a convoy, at about 0800 hours off Deal. Six bomb carrying Bf 109s crossed the Channel and caused little damage. Fighters and fighter-bombers continued to use stream tactics, generally at 30,000 to 35,000 ft where they were difficult to counter. Hptm. Heinz Bretnütz and Oblt. Gerhard Michalski from Stab II./JG 53 each claimed a Spitfire at 0855 hours.

I only see 30000' mentioned once, the rest of the accounts mention high or higher altitude. High or higher means higher than the bombers which came in at 16000-20000'. And you are using this forum as your source?

I don't care what has been posted, a fighter-bomber (109E with a 550lb bomb) will not physically be able to get up to 30000'. Period. Not physically possible. And 35000'? Dreaming.

A large percentage of this battle, indeed most of the attacks after the first of October (the Blitz) were at night. Is the LW going to operate at 30000' at night? Doubtful.

Not saying it never happened, just saying if it did it was extremely rare. And a 109E with a 550lb bomb at 30000'? No way.

 

[P-39 Expert]

I actually found 2 - you're ignoring the Magee citation - and one of them was for an entire squadron. It took me about 5 mins of googling to find them. I don't have all my references because I've been on a business trip for a week now…so maybe you can do some research yourself and stop trotting out an unsupported opinion? But that would involve trying to learn rather than simply cherry-picking from posts to persist an argument.

I note you've assiduously ignored (again) my other comments so do you accept that the gas heater was a standard fit on the P-39 and wasn't a special requirement by the Brits?

No, the gas heater was specified by the British for the Bell model 14 P-400. Subsequent export model 14 (D-1 and D-2) apparently had the gas heater also according to Shortround. I have not seen that. Not saying it's not correct.

But the model 15 P-39D/F and the rest of P-39 production (Model 26-K/L/M/N/Q) had the ducted hot air from the coolant radiator.

 

[pbehn]

I only see 30000' mentioned once, the rest of the accounts mention high or higher altitude. High or higher means higher than the bombers which came in at 16000-20000'. And you are using this forum as your source?

I don't care what has been posted, a fighter-bomber (109E with a 550lb bomb) will not physically be able to get up to 30000'. Period. Not physically possible. And 35000'? Dreaming.

A large percentage of this battle, indeed most of the attacks after the first of October (the Blitz) were at night. Is the LW going to operate at 30000' at night? Doubtful.

Not saying it never happened, just saying if it did it was extremely rare. And a 109E with a 550lb bomb at 30000'? No way.

Well read it again then, I will make it easy for you, the first line in bold and the second to last line in bold, and I have already posted, which is mentioned in the thread at the start, RDF couldnt tell altitude accurately, so if the planes werent actually intercepted (mentioned many times} then all that is known is that it was higher than the interceptors could get in the time they had, the P-39 would have made precisely no interceptions, none, zero, zilch. When will you give up this nonsense? Read it again from start to finish and learn to count above one. Then read the whole thread for the whole of October.

Who are you to say what is possible? Show me the quals? I am only posting about daylight activity, the twin engined bombers were by then mainly working at night, if you read the thread and some books instead of contemplating what you feel you may have some information on the subject not just feelings.

If you disagree with what is posted take it up with the Moderator who posted it Njaco ,you are utterly pathetic.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Using WWII Aircraft Performance performance tests such as these?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39M-3_42-4706_FS-M-19-1511-A.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39N_FS-M-19-1487-A.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39N_FS-M-19-1510-A.pdf

Those N tests would be the ones.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Well read it again then, I will make it easy for you, the first line in bold and the second to last line in bold, and I have already posted, which is mentioned in the thread at the start, RDF couldnt tell altitude accurately, so if the planes werent actually intercepted (mentioned many times} then all that is known is that it was higher than the interceptors could get in the time they had, the P-39 would have made precisely no interceptions, none, zero, zilch. When will you give up this nonsense? Read it again from start to finish and learn to count above one. Then read the whole thread for the whole of October.

The P-39 was not involved in the BoB. It hadn't even been produced yet. It was not available. Please don't mention the P-39 and the BoB in the same sentence again. Impossible.

The second to last line, as has been explained to you many times before, is a physical impossibility. A 109E with a 550lb bomb can't get to 30000'. Can't be done.

Look, you are never going to be able to prove your position. You've been searching for this for a while now, and have found two references that are pilot accounts. You yourself admit that radar back then couldn't reliably indicate altitude. Any BoB combat at 30000' was a very rare occurrence, if it occurred at all.

I will never be able to prove that it didn't happen, even though LW bombers topped out at 20000' and the 109E escorts were instructed to stay close to the bombers. Half the battle was at night. there certainly weren't any flights at 30000' at night. And NO fighter bombers at 30000'.

Please continue believing that squadrons of planes fought it out over 30000' all the time. I'll remain very skeptical.

 

[pbehn]

The P-39 was not involved in the BoB. It hadn't even been produced yet. It was not available. Please don't mention the P-39 and the BoB in the same sentence again. Impossible.

The second to last line, as has been explained to you many times before, is a physical impossibility. A 109E with a 550lb bomb can't get to 30000'. Can't be done.

Look, you are never going to be able to prove your position. You've been searching for this for a while now, and have found two references that are pilot accounts. You yourself admit that radar back then couldn't reliably indicate altitude. Any BoB combat at 30000' was a very rare occurrence, if it occurred at all.

I will never be able to prove that it didn't happen, even though LW bombers topped out at 20000' and the 109E escorts were instructed to stay close to the bombers. Half the battle was at night. there certainly weren't any flights at 30000' at night. And NO fighter bombers at 30000'.

Please continue believing that squadrons of planes fought it out over 30000' all the time. I'll remain very skeptical.

What is your point, you said that none ever got above 30,000ft now it becomes an issue of whether they had a bomb or not. A Bf 109 with a bomb is a BOMBER. You saying something didnt happen because you dont believe it is not explaining anything. Who are you to explain anything to anyone? You cant count past one and cant be bothered to read a post let alone a book.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but this was from the book "Dogfight: The Battle of Britain;

P177

P178

P179

 

[pbehn]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but this was from the book "Dogfight: The Battle of Britain;

P177
View attachment 630844

P178
View attachment 630845

P179

View attachment 630846

I would normally give a winner emoji for this, but on this thread nothing wins, after all, they are just "joe pilot" recollections.