Gunther Rall vs. Zemke's Wolfpack

Arossihman · Nov 15, 2011

I would be inclined to say it was true.....don't know for sure though. Zemke and Rall were two exceptional pilots, but by then most of Hubs wolfpack were seasoned as well and I believe(correct me if i'm wrong), they were flying the "M" variant of the '47 by then so when you have 4 seasoned jug pilots in a lighter faster version of one of the most heavily,armed,armored, and fastest prop fighters of the war ur odds for survival are low even for Gunther Rall! Just my humble opinion!
Tony

Juha · Nov 16, 2011

Hello Tony
P-47Ms were still over ½ year away. The first arrived to 56th FG on 3 Jan 45.

Juha

Arossihman · Nov 16, 2011

Juha said:
Hello Tony
P-47Ms were still over ½ year away. The first arrived to 56th FG on 3 Jan 45.

Juha

Thanks for the correction I knew they came late in the war but could'nt remember the date!

drgondog · Nov 17, 2011

Ratsel said:
On 12th May while flying Bf 109 G-5 "Schwarz << +", W.Nr.110 089, of Stab II./JG 11, he nearly succeeded in downing the commander of the famed 56th FG, Lt Col Hubert Zemke (17 3/4 v., POW 30/10/44), and did succeed in destroying two Thunderbolts of this unit. However, he himself was bounced by another pair of P-47s from this same unit and was shot down and forced to bail out over Frankfurt / Main, in the process having his left thumb shot off.

In Hienz Knoke's book "I flew for the Fuhrer: Story of a German Airman", Knoke states that Günther Specht was responsible for saving General Rall's life, by circling Rall as he floated to earth shooting at any allied aircraft that came close. With that, on On 15 May 1944, Major Specht became Kommodore of JG 11. IIRC.

Hope this helps.

It would be a crock to claim that Specht 'saved Rall's Life' . A.) Rall makes no such observation that he was in danger of being shot up in his chute. B.) had any US fighter attempted it he could not be 'driven off by Specht' as he was circling Rall.

drgondog · Nov 17, 2011

Ratsel said:
Rall shot down Jack Green from 62nd (confirmed can't recall the other) and Powers and his wingman bounced General Rall. Shared.

Powers and Vitale were each awarded 1/2 Me 109 - likely shooters of Rall's 109. Rankin received all five of his credits NW Marburg near Frankfurt.

Lt Col Preston Piper (former B-17 pilot) was the other wingman of Zemke shot down by Rall. One near Coblenz in first pass and one near Frankfurt where Rall and his five other 109s had Zemke cornered.

Ratsel · Nov 17, 2011

drgondog said:
It would be a crock to claim that Specht 'saved Rall's Life' . A.) Rall makes no such observation that he was in danger of being shot up in his chute. B.) had any US fighter attempted it he could not be 'driven off by Specht' as he was circling Rall.

Thats what Knoke said, and Specht thought. Whether that was really the case or not on the allied part is irrelevant. But to call it a crock is assinine. ANyways late war didn't matter. SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. Thats a fact.

Erich · Nov 17, 2011

volume II of JG 1/11 by Dr. J. Prien is what you need but of course if the KTB of JG 11 is complete which it is not and therefore some things must be taken with a grain of salt. to be honest Rall was a sitting duck as he flew away to save his butt.

drgondog · Nov 18, 2011

Ratsel - if Specht thought he was protecting Rall in the short distance form his landing spot - in ANY way, he was way over valuing his ability to do so from any fighter approaching him. Simply, he has zero chance to protect Rall from an adversary determined to kill him.

Ergo, he of all people should know this. If he told Rall the same story Rall would thank him but also wonder how Specht planned to protect him.

Somewhere the definiton of 'crock' comes into play - as well as 'asinine' with respect to thinking he could protect Rall!

Arossihman · Nov 20, 2011

Ratsel said:
Thats what Knoke said, and Specht thought. Whether that was really the case or not on the allied part is irrelevant. But to call it a crock is assinine. ANyways late war didn't matter. SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. Thats a fact.

That may be true...but i seem to remember hearing about a but load of us army prisoners being assasinated wholesale by some german soldiers with an mg-42 in the ardennes during the battle of the bulge....This stuff happened on both sides and in no way was it right! One of the sad parts of war is that innocents are killed....thats why we try and learn from our forefathers and prevent ww3! I'm just glad germany has been reunited and we are allies with them!

Njaco · Nov 20, 2011

....SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. Thats a fact.

Pretty bold statement. Can you provide your sources?

bobbysocks · Nov 20, 2011

Rall was flying a 109...so he should have easily just outflown them and made them look like newbies....like that 109 jock did to the four 51s during bodenplatte. but i guess he wasnt as seasoned a pilot as that guy was....

Arossihman · Nov 20, 2011

Let us not forget that by the end of the war the germans were hiding and transporting munitions,aircraft,truck,and soldiers using civilian cars,trucks,horses and carts,and barns and sheds! By doing so didnt they put their own people in the line of fire? Were our pilots supposed to overlook this and let more of our boys die because of it? By then the writing was on the wall....maybe hitler should have surrendered and saved the lives of his people and the allies!

Ratsel · Nov 20, 2011

Waffen SS were crazy SOB's. NOT part of German regular army which does not endorse ANY political party. The Germans were using horses carts, cars, etc from the begining of the war also.

As far as Gereral Rall, he outflown/outsmarted claimed 275 allied pilots. I say he did his job very well. Flak got Gunther Specht Franz Meindl, so Allied AAA did there job very well.

Horrido!

Erich · Nov 20, 2011

actually Rall did not have the height advantage and could not get away from 56th fg jugs, as I stated he was a sitting duck Specht and others on that days mission had other Allied A/C to contend with Rall was on his own.

Specht may not have been shot down by US AA but by a Jug of the 366th fg. Bodenplatte was ill-conceived for JG 11 on that fateful day of waste of men/machine

Ratsel · Nov 20, 2011

really? if you could please post some info on Specht's demise, I would be most gratefull!

Horrido!

Erich · Nov 20, 2011

copyrighted materials

blue nose Bastards of Bodney - 352nd fg at Asch Y-29 history book, demise of JG 11 under one blue nose squadron.

Ron Putz, John Manhro's Bodenplatte would be good to get a copy and then cross reference with the datum of the 352nd and the 366th fg's on their ops for the day.

as I said earlier the JG 11 attack was confused they had really no clue what they were doing yet up against.

bobbysocks · Nov 20, 2011

I know Ralls record and highly respect him...my point was there was more to the original story of the 109 turning the battle on the 4 51s. if it were a case of mere ac superiority...Rall of all people would have been able to turn that particular battle. it wasnt...even an excellant pilot in a good machine gets into trouble...sometimes they are lucky enough to get out...and sometimes they werent.

later in the war...the protocol changed for fighter coverage. 1/3 of the fighter group was free to roam the countryside and orders were to shoot anthing that moves....trains, cars, ox carts, barges, etc. but they as a whole didnt target the german citizen walking home from the market. I read a story where fighters were attacking an airdrome and everytime the made a pass over the one end they flew over an elderly german lady walking nonchalantly with her bags as if nothing was going on. did guys take pot shots at things they probably shouldnt have...church steeples, statues??...i would be more than willing to bet they did. they were after all 20 year old kids....but i think still they picked targets that were non human in those respects.

Njaco · Nov 20, 2011

You will always have collateral damage in war. You will always have overshooting and mistakes made. But purposely to target individual civilians, I have never heard of from the Allies. And I'm not talking about bombing missions.

Ratsel · Nov 20, 2011

Erich said:
copyrighted materials

blue nose Bastards of Bodney - 352nd fg at Asch Y-29 history book, demise of JG 11 under one blue nose squadron.

Ron Putz, John Manhro's Bodenplatte would be good to get a copy and then cross reference with the datum of the 352nd and the 366th fg's on their ops for the day.

as I said earlier the JG 11 attack was confused they had really no clue what they were doing yet up against.

Yeah I have the book Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope. A ill-concieved plan made with haste that was suicide for those Luftwaffe pilots. At least the ' Big Blow ' would have bought the Luftwaffe about 3 weeks to figure something out.

Dronescapes · Jun 10, 2022

Here is a complete documentary with plenty of footage of Rall being interviewed::

Gunther Rall vs. Zemke's Wolfpack

Airman

Senior Master Sergeant

Airman

Major

Major

Banned

the old Sage

Major

Airman

The Pop-Tart Whisperer

Chief Master Sergeant

Airman

Banned

the old Sage

Banned

the old Sage

Chief Master Sergeant

The Pop-Tart Whisperer

Banned

Senior Airman

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