He 162 v P-80 V Vampire

[KrazyKraut]

The DH 106 was designed in 1944 and the swept tailless layout (which they obviously chose not to go with ultimately) was one of three being considered, long before the RAE had the chance to fly the 163. Indeed the De Havilland project's existence heightened the RAE's interest in evaluating the Me 163 when one was captured as a chance to fly the layout early (for us). I am sure that once one was available they looked at the 163 very closely indeed, as you say.

I was referring to th DH108. I probably should've made that more clear.

The 163 was not a rush project like the Bachem Natter for example, Lippisch had been designing it for several years but its deployment was rushed. As he had been waiting for a rocket motor to be delivered from Walther since May 1942 there was even a piston engined version, the Me 334 schemed by Lippisch which was only shelved after the rocket powereed version had finally flown.

Yes the problems of the 163 were entirely the fault of its motor and fuel system, but it was a complete package, you could not have one without the other as all the schemes for a jet powered version of the 163 were still on the drawing board so yes, I do consider that it was rushed into service.

It seems we were in a misunderstanding then. As the basis for this argument was airframe design I falsely concluded from your first post that you meant the Me 163 airframe to be underdeveloped. As far as propulsion goes, I agree. However, I doubt that the Walter engine could've ever made into something really safe. For the Me 163 that meant either deploy or scrap the project altogether. Incorporating a jet engine basically meant designing a new plane.

 

[Graeme]

I was referring to th DH108. I probably should've made that more clear.

The design finalisation for the DH-108 was "locked " in September 1945 and the first aircraft (TG283) rolled out in April 1946. When was the first Me-163 available for the De Havilland design team to have a "look or two?" When they went back to the Hatfield assembly plant what did they do? The wing and fin sweeps were different, slats incorporated, jet engine, Vampire frame, wheeled undercarriage...what did they change?

 

[KrazyKraut]

There were three Me 163's shipped to GB afaik. When, I don't know. An aircraft can be inspired by another without copying directly. I only speculated that the D.H.108's design might've been influenced by the Komet, I never said it must necessarily be so and I have no evidence to support this. It may very well be that both teams found the same answers to the same problems.

 

[Waynos]

No problem KKr, I can see what you mean.

Also (and again this is pure speculation as I haven't looked into it yet) if DH HAD copied the 163, might they not have suffered the catastrophic flutter problem of the 108, or was this heading Messerschmitt's way too with the more highly swept designs like the P.1111, which if anything, is much more like the DH 108 than the Me 163 is?

 

[Soren]

Nonsense as usual from Soren

The F.1's maximum take off weight was 4753kg, 2891kg empty. The FB.9's maximum take off weight was 5620kg. 6400kg for the Me 262 just seems to be some random figure you've pulled from nowhere. Apart from the handful of preproduction types with Goblin 1 engines, the rest had 3100lbf Goblin 2s. Even with the Goblin 1, the Vampire has a higher t/w ratio than the Me 262.

The Meteor F4 was not rushed into service postwar, which accounts for the delays. It first flew in late 45 and offered considerably higher speed than the Me 262 along with twice the rate of climb.

Its available far earlier than your fantasy world where the HeS011 actually works - it didn't.

The only one posting nonsense so far is you red admiral, and that has infact become the defining feature of your character on this forum.

The FB.1 (Which wasnt ready before 1946, 3 years after the first service ready Me262!) featured the Goblin I engine which produced 10.2 kN of thrust, and for its high combat weight of 5,620 kg that just wasn't enough and it featured a horrible T/W ratio compared to the Me-262.

And I haven't pulled any random figures, they're factual and you've just gotta learn to deal with them cause they don't run away. This is the real world red admiral, not your little fairytale land where you can make stuff up.

Furthermore the Me262 wasn't rushed into production, it was severely delayed, and had you put more attention into history you would've known that, but unsurprisingly you didn't. The Meteor F4 project was however not delayed as you claim, it merely took that long to get the prototype into a properly functioning a/c worthy of service.

Oh and as to performance, the Meteor needed engines twice as powerful to even match the Me-262, once more proving the Me-262's far superior design. Same goes for the Vampire which needed a 22.8 kN engine to reach 900 km/h, the Me-262 went past that in 44 with 17.6 kN's of thrust.

And finally the HeS-011 did work, very well infact, and your claim that it didn't is just a load of rubbish as all the rest you've posted. However the HeS-011 engine was so advanced that it would take time to get it into full scale production, which along with the delays imposed earlier on by Hitler made sure it didn't make it into full scale production during WW2.

 

[HellToupee]

The FB.1 (Which wasnt ready before 1946, 3 years after the first service ready Me262!) featured the Goblin I engine which produced 10.2 kN of thrust, and for its high combat weight of 5,620 kg that just wasn't enough and it featured a horrible T/W ratio compared to the Me-262.

FB.1? there was no FB.1, there was a F.1 and it fully loaded was only 4800kg, 5620kg is loaded weight for a FB.6. As was the me262 weight is excessively low by all sources i've ever seen it was pushing 7000kg loaded.

 

[Soren]

From the Allied Me262 POH:
"The normal take off gross weight is 14,272 lbs"

14,272 lbs = 6,473 kg.

The Me-262 weighed ~7,000 kg if the extra internal 600 L tank was filled for extra endurance, but it hardly ever was as it was required it was emptied before any maneuvering was attempted because of the CG being too far to the rear when it was filled. The normal combat weight was 6,400 kg.

 

[Glider]

If it helps I have the following for the ME 262
Empty 3,800 KG
Empty Equipped 4,420KG
Normal Loaded
(Main Tanks Fuel) 6,396kg
(Max internal Fuel) 7,130kg

For the Vampire I have the following dates
First Flight - 20 September 1943
First Production -20 April 1945

Had the RAF been in similar situation to the Luftwaffe I have little doubt that the production would have been brought forward.

 

[Glider]

Re the DH108, as far as I am aware there was no connection with the ME163. Indeed E Brown considered the Dh108 to be a real handfull but the Me163 handled very well and as he flew both would go with that.

 

[delcyros]

Soren, all of the HeS011 AV-prototype jet engines tested by either the UK or US post war delivered the thrust rating they have been designed for. They fell significantly short of the 1300 Kp legend rating.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Not untypical for prototypes.

 

[johnbr]

Dr Hans Von Ohain said they had to sacrifice 1300Ib's of trust to make the HeSo11 run cooler.Because of the inferior metals the RLM was making them use.He also said 70% of the R+d was not developing the engine it was figuring out how to elem ate all nickel and high heat metal from the engine.They had it down to 4-1/2lb's of high grade metal but the RLM said not good enough.They whated 2 -1/2lb's.

 

[Waynos]

Soren, some notes to accompany your last post.

Only the first 41 Vampire F.1's (there was no FB.1) were fitted with the Goblin 1 @2,700lb thrust, these aircrat were all used for trials and the RAE figures were achieved on one of them, TG274/G.The Goblin 2 was the standard engine from TG318 onwards @ 3,100lb thrust and this was subsequently changed to the Goblin 2/2 @4,400lbs thrust. No squadron was issued with a Goblin 1 powered aircraft for operations.

The Meteor F4 project was however not delayed as you claim, it merely took that long to get the prototype into a properly functioning a/c worthy of service.

with the end of the war EVERY british military programme was reviewed and either slowed down or cancelled outright with priority being given to the Brabazon projects. This lack of urgency can be seen not just in the operational debut of the Meteor F.4, but also every other major type including the Vampire and even the piston engined Sea Fury.

For you to claim that 'it just took that long' as some sort of yardstick for how far ahead Germany was is disingenuous at best.

I agree that the 262 was a cleaner design than the Meteor and that the wings, while not quite as advanced as people suppose, were nevertheless far better than the Meteors relatively thick and broad planform. I think that with the same sort of engine development that Britain enjoyed the 262 was a genuine 600+mph airframe while brute force was required to get the Meteor up to that speed.

 

[HellToupee]

Re the DH108, as far as I am aware there was no connection with the ME163. Indeed E Brown considered the Dh108 to be a real handfull but the Me163 handled very well and as he flew both would go with that.

Yea looks like it needed a tail or a longer body with how far they swept those wings back.

 

[Soren]

Soren, all of the HeS011 AV-prototype jet engines tested by either the UK or US post war delivered the thrust rating they have been designed for. They fell significantly short of the 1300 Kp legend rating.

The hope was 3,500 lbs of thrust in the end, by 1945 they had managed 2,700 lbs continous on the bench though. But this is still a lot better than other engines of the time.

 

[drgondog]

Yea looks like it needed a tail or a longer body with how far they swept those wings back.

Actually that wouldn't have much effect on the static margin (longer body) except to possibly alter the cg.

All the flying wings require clever wing design to provide pitch control and very few have sufficient static margin to fully control pitch and/or provide sufficient pitch damping..

 

[delcyros]

With the informations contributed by Mike Williams N. Stirling we should reonsider the He-162 vs Vampire vs P-80 thread.
I don´t see much of a performane difference between all three planes at 15.000 to 30.000 ft. altitude (actually I was a bit surprised by the disappointing P-80 performance)
The He-162 has a larger speed window and a significantly better crit Mach figure.
One thing I like on the Vampire is the compact design, e.g. how fuel, engine and pilot compartements are grouped together.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

One thing I like on the Vampire is the compact design, e.g. how fuel, engine and pilot compartements are grouped together.

Try sitting in one!

 

[Colin1]

One thing I like on the Vampire is the compact design, e.g. how fuel... ....and pilot compartments are grouped together.

YIKES!!!

 

[delcyros]

A compact layout gives less target area and -that´s quite important- the components may be shielded with less armour. I don´t like to much distribution, this in turn tends to increase vulnarability.