He277: Promising? Or further development of a bad apple?

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't know guys, after reading all this (and having a maintainer's background) I think the HE.177/ 277 was just a giant pile of crap and would of been a nightmare to maintain!!! Maintenance wise i think it might of made the B-29 look like a Piper Cub!!!!!!

 

[delcyros]

Generally spoken, I tend to disagree, but not by much. The B-29 with it´s sophisticated AA systems is much more worrisome to maintain than a refined He-177. Nethertheless this ship needed manpower and more worrisome: high grade fuel. A single Geschwader (100-120 planes) would take about 1/5 of the Reichs high grade fuel reserves in less than two weeks!
Another reason to move towards jet propulsion, they could use the low grade fuel, still avaiable for the Luftwaffe in 1945.

 

[V-1710]

Did any He-177's survive the war? I seem to remember seeing a picture of an He-177 in U.S.A.A.F. markings, taken at the end of the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Uh, the main difference of the He 177 and the subsequent 274 and 277 was that the latter pair were conceived as high altitude bombers. The He 274 with an offensive load of 8,800 lbs. could reach 42,650 feet with a maximum altitude of 46, 920 feet. It could hit 360 MPH at 36,090 feet too. Range was 2,640 miles, less than the 177's 3,400 miles.

Like the He 274 the He 277 abandoned the problematic engine coupling and used four nacelles. The 277B-5/R2 was set up to hit 49,210 feet. Max speed was 354 MPH but range was 3,728 miles.

The He 277B-6/R1 could do 348 MPH, hit 43,960 feer but had a range of 4,475miles. Both models could 1,100 lbs of internal ordnance but were set up to carry 5,512 lbs of SC 2500 bombs, Henschel he 293 or 294 missiles or the FX 1400 Fritz X guided bombs externally.

Imagine if the Luftwaffe had bombers with that alltitude and that could carry that magnitude of bomb load in 1940 during the Battle of Britian.

 

[Twitch]

Adler- They were on the right track with the Ju 86P in mid 1940- a little too late for quantity production. However an undetected photo recon sortie was flown at 41,000 in the summer during the BoB. Several Ju 86P-1s and P-2s were delivered to 2./Aufkl.gr.Ob.d.L in 1940 and some missions were flown over the British Isles.

They were powered by Jumo 207A-1 6-cylinder diesels. The original concept was as a bomber with a slow climb to over 39,000 feet and cruise at 215 MPH to target, drop to 32-33,000 feet, release 2,200 lbs. of ordnance and go back up to 37,000 for the return home.

Don't know why but they were only used and developed further as high altitude recon ships.

 

[Henk]

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler- They were on the right track with the Ju 86P in mid 1940- a little too late for quantity production. However an undetected photo recon sortie was flown at 41,000 in the summer during the BoB. Several Ju 86P-1s and P-2s were delivered to 2./Aufkl.gr.Ob.d.L in 1940 and some missions were flown over the British Isles.

They were powered by Jumo 207A-1 6-cylinder diesels. The original concept was as a bomber with a slow climb to over 39,000 feet and cruise at 215 MPH to target, drop to 32-33,000 feet, release 2,200 lbs. of ordnance and go back up to 37,000 for the return home.

Don't know why but they were only used and developed further as high altitude recon ships.

Yeah I read about that mission and knew of the Ju-86 as well. I have some interesting pictures of the photo recon version in a book of mine about KG-200.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

Plenty survived the war. I just dont know what happened to them after the war. I believe 1 or 2 are in museums. I think the National Air and Space Museum has one but it is not on display right now.

 

[Matt308]

I don't know guys, after reading all this (and having a maintainer's background) I think the HE.177/ 277 was just a giant pile of crap and would of been a nightmare to maintain!!! Maintenance wise i think it might of made the B-29 look like a Piper Cub!!!!!!

I'm with you Flyboy. I think that my thread has come full circle. I too have a real world airworthiness background and think this plane was plagued by too many technical issues requiring their resolution in a very short time for the airplane to accomplish its intended mission. Doesn't mean I don't find the airplane as one of the most beatiful to have come out of the war though.

 

[V-1710]

N.A.S.M. (Smithsonian) has a He-219, of all things, but doesn't seem to have an He-177.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I'm with you Flyboy. I think that my thread has come full circle. I too have a real world airworthiness background and think this plane was plagued by too many technical issues requiring their resolution in a very short time for the airplane to accomplish its intended mission. Doesn't mean I don't find the airplane as one of the most beatiful to have come out of the war though.

I agree fully with you on what you are saying and I too am an aviation mechanic, I just believe that with eneogh time the He-177 could have turned into a fine aircraft.

 

[Neilster]

Original question belongs to whether or not this plane was promising.
I tend to disagree. The He-277 (and to a lesser degree the He-274) were technically interesting planes, worth mentioning. But by their time, the Luftwaffe had other needs than strategical bombers. Fighter and tactical bombers were urgently needed. They already developed V-1 and V-2, which to some degree could substitute the role of a strategical bomber for much lower costs. With the numerical superiority of first class piston A/C the allied had in this stage of war in mind, a new strategical bomber design is only justified in case it is either very fast (requiring jet propulsion) or flying extremely high or both.

I agree with your last point especially. The V2 was a total disaster from an economical point of view though. It carried only about 1000kg, was pretty inaccurate and each one cost a fortune, not to mention the expense of all their associated testing and launching infrastructure. They didn't even do much damage as they tended to bury themselves in the ground before exploding due to their high velocity. The program gobbled up heaps of resources in numerous fields such as electronics that stalled more worthy projects like the anti aircraft missiles.

To have had a serious strategic bomber in time to make a difference, the Luftwaffe would have had to develop the Ju 89.

Cheers, Neilster

 

[Neilster]

I agree fully with you on what you are saying and I too am an aviation mechanic, I just believe that with eneogh time the He-177 could have turned into a fine aircraft.

They got them going quite well in the end but the development took so long that the strategic picture had completely changed and as has been already noted, they were no longer a good use of resources.

They were never popular with their crews too.

Cheers, Neilster

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They got them going quite well in the end but the development took so long that the strategic picture had completely changed and as has been already noted, they were no longer a good use of resources.

They were never popular with their crews too.

Cheers, Neilster

That I completely agree with, and as deylcros said by the time would have been fully up and running with out problems the strategic reasons had changed and there was no need for them either.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

Out of the little more than 1000 built there no surviving He-177s today that are known. Several Hundred survived the war and were scrapped and torn apart.

 

[delcyros]

...actually I know there have been three speciman to survive into the 90´s.
In the mid 90´s they have been excavated somewhere in Norway
in close vicinity to the airfield (stripped off from weapons and electronic eqipment but otherwise buried intact). I do not know where it exactly was, I read an article about this in the 90´s. I do not know, what was done with them either but will find it out.

 

[Gnomey]

That I completely agree with, and as deylcros said by the time would have been fully up and running with out problems the strategic reasons had changed and there was no need for them either.

Agreed, by the time they could of been working efficiently they war would of been over or as you said there would be no need for them because of the defensive situation.

 

[Henk]

Well a He-219 is a rare WW2 aircraft so I will give them that one. The NASM has a lot of rare aircraft they just need to restore them and it cost money. I just hope they restore the Kikka they have and the HO-229 soon.

 

[unkated]

Twitch -

The reason that the Ju86P R versions were not purused was that they were deeveloped as rebuilds frome earlier versions; by 1940, the Ju86 had been out of military production for nearly 2 years. As compared to a Ju88, they were comparatively fragile.

Further, bombing from extremely high altitude was not particularly effective, especially in such low numbers.

Further, the Ju86P found that even at 37,000 ft, they could still be intercepted by RAF fighters after the first few missions by lightened fighters. It did not fly fast enough to avoid danger, whereas the He177 (if its engines did not overheat) could dive across England at 350-400 mph, makling a chase dicey at best.

Uncle Ted

 

[Henk]

It is actually sad that the He-177 were such a failure and had so much problems. The Ju-89 were a great idea but when Goering came to be head of the Luftwaffe everything went from great to worse.

I agree with you Adler and Neilster and also the Ju-88 was a great aircraft and could do what were expected of it. I would have loved to see the Ju-89 as the heavy bomber for Germany.