HMS Queen Elizabeth

Great one, pD. Hell the QE2 is now floating hotel in Los Angeles. We have had numerous meetings there. So in that vein, Britain's inventions continue to support meaningless meeting agendas, serve as places for business men to rack up after a hard's day drinking and provide a place for the world's oldest profession to prosper.

God save the Queen!

YEAH! The only nation that provides for everyone but itself ! Go Britain !

You have to admit though that a CVF with a few wings of F-35s will be quite impressive. Certainly more impressive than Russia or France.

Matt308 said:

You have to admit though that a CVF with a few wings of F-35s will be quite impressive. Certainly more impressive than Russia or France.

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Dont hold your breath Matt our MOD just succeeded in blowing half a billion quid on 8 Chinooks that can only fly in fair weather, its on here and makes for sorry reading.
BBC NEWS | UK | The 'sorry saga' of UK's Chinooks
I love those pen pushers they should have their offices relocated to the firing butts on Sailsbury plains.

Matt308 said:

Why do I find that somehow pathetic, Kruska. I hope you are kidding.

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Why? Maybe there could/should be a bigger picture?

NATO is a Cold War relict; it is not suitable to serve the purpose of today's challenges in this world anymore. The common enemy, threat or fear is no more – therefore individual interests and conflicts of interest between the US and the EU states are developing and showing up more and more.

To propagate international unity against terrorism in order to keep NATO as it was, is not enough since the means to combat this threat differentiate to much already between the US and Europe.

Unfortunately there is no USE and therefore there is no UE Armed Forces. One European country such as England can't achieve anything just alone by its own. Building 2 carriers is one thing, protecting, supplying and tactically employing them is another thing. As such England could only rent them out to the US Fleet or put itself under US command.

As long as there is no USE every individual European country will have to depend on the USA as they have done in the past 63 year's incl. Germany. Somehow England seems to be closer to the US at present, whilst France and Germany and others do not agree in many aspects with US politics and views and as such placing themselves under US command.

Germany and France have not supported the US view and action against Iraq for the 2nd Gulf war, they will not share the US view or even actions against Iran. Therefore both countries have to take into consideration that sooner or later the US might not be willing to help or sacrifice its soldiers for the sake of these two countries or others when they might be in trouble or need.

Look at the US how many companies or models do they have to concentrate on for military hardware – and then look at Europe.
There is just one MBT producer and model in the USA in contra to 6 in the EU, so one can imagine the cost/efficiency ratio. For the carriers, France will buy from England? or Germany from France? and Italy from who? Therefore the costing for England to build these carriers just for their own and at the end they will still depend on the US for support in order to deploy them doesn't pay off in my view.

IMO individual European military programs are just a sign of national pride, shortsightedness and inability to contribute towards a common European cause and therefore a waste of money. A strong united Europe together with the USA on equal terms is a future sense making solution to me and not national individualism and rubbing shoulders with big brother USA hoping for a favor in return.

Regards
Kruska

United Kingdom or Britain.

England does not have a navy.

The British Empire exists...Thats why this forum is in English!

The new carriers...if ever built...will employ skilled people and be effective against lesser powers.

Fish and chips and The Queen is far better than what some countries have exported.

Australia has plans for a sea control ship which at this stage will not include any fixed wing capability. They are called the Canberra class. They might be under threat due to the change of government

Anyway heres a picture of what they may look like

The news today is announcing the idea of a EU force once again, so what happens if the UK decide to get involved overseas but the German's, French etc dont, will it be majority voting. I dont think so.
I did not vote for going into the EU when we had a referendum originally as it was obvious from the start that federalism was on the agender. If you want United States of Europe then good luck mate. I am British not American, French German or anything else I live in the UK because I choose to not because I have to.
I really resent having a body not elected by my fellow countrymen making laws that I am expected to obey. I also resent my taxes being used to fund the biggest MP expenses grave train in the world. IMO It is not pride that our armed forces are here it is because history has proven over and over again that if you fail to maintain a reasonable defensive caperbility some tin pot dictator turns up and wants to rule the world or your part of it. The least that those who stood alongside eachother to defend democracy can do is to maintain a force even with finacial constaints of a smaller GDP that can take an active part in keeping democracy not just relying on the US to do the work.
Two new carriers are nothing to do with pride, pride in your nation is about the people and their achievements not the fact you have a big boat. The carriers enable the UK to project its international obligations as well as its own defensive/political requirements without need of land based aircraft and the accompaniing problems of locating, establishing maintaining overseas airpower/forces.

I wouldnt write off NATO just yet as not needed. Russia is much weakened, but recovering. The states of the forme SU other than Russia can generally be described as weak corrupt and economically unviable. The Russians have a nasty habit of never giving up, and coming back when you least expect it.

Having said all that, squabbling between the european powers over the centuries has caused more wars than anybody wants to admit

Hello trackend,

Having a USE first in order to set up a UE Armed Forces is understood, and not the other way around as some idiotic EU politicians are trying. The Europeans who settled in the now USA, still keep their little national ticks, but they understood the meaning of a united states and this is the reason why they are now where they are = No.1.

The process of a USE will take maybe 20 or 40 years, but every small step in that direction adds to the shortening of this timeframe. And individual military programs do not; they are contra productive to closing the gap or to nearing each other.

Honestly the sooner GB decides what they want, stay independent or whatever, the sooner Europe will have a chance to grow together. For me I am very clearly a European with Bavarian heritage, and a very close friend of mine is a European with Scottish heritage.

But I still like your avatar.

Regards
Kruska

Hello trackend,

Having a USE first in order to set up a UE Armed Forces is understood, and not the other way around as some idiotic EU politicians are trying. The Europeans who settled in the now USA, still keep their little national ticks, but they understood the meaning of a united states and this is the reason why they are now where they are = No.1.

The process of a USE will take maybe 20 or 40 years, but every small step in that direction adds to the shortening of this timeframe. And individual military programs do not; they are contra productive to closing the gap or to nearing each other.

Honestly the sooner GB decides what they want, stay independent or whatever, the sooner Europe will have a chance to grow together. For me I am very clearly a European with Bavarian heritage, and a very close friend of mine is a European with Scottish heritage.

But I still like your avatar.
Sorry double post
Regards
Kruska

Absolute bollocks to that. I hope Great Britain quickly decides to shed itself of the EU; the Continent of Europe has failed time and time again to control Britain by force, so they attempt to do so through diplomacy.

Britain is an island nation and there's a lot of national pride. A country should be able to defend its own borders, and if Europe doesn't want to then so be it but Britain isn't European, it's British.

Trackend, that Chinook shambles isn't the first time the government has f*cked up military orders... the Tornado is a perfect example.

Kruska said:

Hello trackend,

Having a USE first in order to set up a UE Armed Forces is understood, and not the other way around as some idiotic EU politicians are trying. The Europeans who settled in the now USA, still keep their little national ticks, but they understood the meaning of a united states and this is the reason why they are now where they are = No.1.


Honestly the sooner GB decides what they want, stay independent or whatever, the sooner Europe will have a chance to grow together. For me I am very clearly a European with Bavarian heritage, and a very close friend of mine is a European with Scottish heritage.

But I still like your avatar.

Regards
Kruska

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They have decide Kruska they signed up that does not mean I have to agree with it even if I am in a minority. I preffered when we had much closer global trading links with NZ, Australia, Canada ,indian etc too many eggs in one basket for my liking

I wonder what the citizens in the US or most other nations would say if Mexico told them they had to imprison a US citizen who had broken a Mexican law but he was on US soil at the time, and the US did not even have that law on their statute. I doubt if being dictated to by another country that they must apply others countries laws dispite not having them would go down like a lead balloon in many countries



Europe wins the power to jail British citizens - Times Online

parsifal said:

I wouldnt write off NATO just yet as not needed...

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A defense union is needed for Europe that is for sure, if NATO provides the appropriate means is questionable. Unclear legal situations and interpretations make common actions already impossible and questionable and Bush's world policy have already divided European countries among each other and caused a rift between Europe and the USA.

NATO has already proved itself in the past too many times as a non reliable organization during the Cyprus occupation, Angola, Mozambique, Falkland conflict, Spanish Sahara, 9/11 and its consequences, Iraq II, and Afghanistan by placing political/economical interests and definitions above the organizations principles.

NATO's future development or continuation will also depend a lot on the oncoming election in the USA. Undeniable Germany and France have a very different opinion in regards to the function and implementation of NATO then the US and its little cousin.

Regards
Kruska

trackend said:

I doubt if being dictated to by another country that they must apply others countries laws dispite not having them would go down like a lead balloon in many countries



Europe wins the power to jail British citizens - Times Online

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I think that the last post was very subversive, call the Brussells Gestapo to apprehend the poster...


Canada got some used subs from the UK, maybe we can get a couple of the used "Invincibles" when they retire them...

plan_D said:

Britain is an island nation and there's a lot of national pride. A country should be able to defend its own borders, and if Europe doesn't want to then so be it but Britain isn't European, it's British.

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And where do these British come from? Well anyway that is what democracy is all about - majority rules -. So lets hope for your benefit that your feelings will be shared by the British majority.

Regards
Kruska (European)

Kruska said:

And where do these British come from? Well anyway that is what democracy is all about - majority rules -. So lets hope for your benefit that your feelings will be shared by the British majority.

Regards
Kruska (European)

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And in 20 years the "Majority of people in Britain" might have other ideas about who needs to be attacked.....


Regards
Alex (still British!)

trackend said:

They have decide Kruska they signed up that does not mean I have to agree with it even if I am in a minority. I preffered when we had much closer global trading links with NZ, Australia, Canada ,indian etc.........]

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As a good sport and democrat you don't have to agree with it but you have to accept it.

Off course I can understand that the Commonwealth had its benefits for Britain, and that most British people have a good remembrance to those days. But I think it blurs the picture – GB today is stronger on economical terms then what it was 20 or 30 years ago, don't you think so?

Surely not everything that some of those EU monkeys debate or decide is perfect, many times it is totally off for one side but perfectly okay for the other side. The good part is that EU law stands above national law – a milestone towards a real united Europe. And it is the European Parliament voted by its national populations alone that decide upon these new EU laws; they forward, decide and implement them together. PURE DEMOCRACY

The American founder states have done that already in 1776, and they are still working and improving on it, jolly good show old lad, isn't it?

Regards
Kruska

"And where do these British come from? Well anyway that is what democracy is all about - majority rules -. So lets hope for your benefit that your feelings will be shared by the British majority."

Weren't all humans from Africa originally? I suppose your idea that all of Europe (Britain included) being one race means that it all should come under the same rule. I believe Herr Hitler wished the same thing, only his attempts through force brought a lot of attention from non-Europeans.

I hope for the benefit of Great Britain that the British government allows the British people to decide. I can see that you want to send your nation into the blue sea of the EU; the funny thing being that European will never truly be standing side by side - we're all too much alike. The majority of people still remain glued to the idea of nation first, foolish ideals later thankfully.

I sure hope that Britain realises its friendship is much stronger than that with its "brethren" in Europe. When the British government allows the British people to voice their opinions, then it'll become obvious to all the Great Britain is not European - the whole shambles has been some deluded politicians dream which should be erased from British shores.

Being a new country maybe Germany doesn't realise the significance of its history; especially since they continually try to erase the last 100 years of it.

And how can you honestly compare the United States to Europe? The U.S. having a 200+ year history to its name which is filled with expansion in the name of the United States; whereas Europe has simply been a line on a map within which rests several different cultures, languages, histories and global aims. Do you honestly think that uniting France and Germany (two extremely violent neighbours) is as simple as New York agreeing with Vermont?

Unfortunately, Alex...you are right, unless something is done soon.

freebird said:

And in 20 years the "Majority of people in Britain" might have other ideas about who needs to be attacked.....
Regards
Alex (still British!)

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Hello Alex,

Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer – hey it even rimes.

Okay so what does this Islam demonstration have to do with a unified Europe? It shows that GB law is too lenient on these scum bags; in Bavaria the Riot police will give them the taste of rubber, water cannons and CS gas for displaying hatred slogans… Exterminate those…… and disguising their faces.

So GB help to adopt/support some Bavarian laws into Europe and things will get much better. In Germany these freaks are free to do the same.

Regards
Andy (Still European)