Henk
Master Sergeant
Yes they do, they told me a while back that they would appreciate a donation. I wish I had money to give them some.
Horton Brothers Flying Wings
- Thread starter RonRyan85
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Henk
Master Sergeant
I do not know, you can contact them on their site. I last had a E-mail from them I think back in 2006.
Cool Trebor I will except you.
Cool Trebor I will except you.
Hey, dropping by, just discovered this discussion
FlyBoyJ, will play the devil advocate here a little bit, if i may
And why if this wasn't the case? what if this plane could really fly without much problems?
Till now, i never saw any aerodynamical studies on the ho-9, you can find any Pollars of almost any plane of the WW2, but you can't find any about the horten, at least i never could find anything about it.
So my request would be: are there,somewhere, modern studies done on a model in a wind tunnel, even done by students, but something that we could actually have in numbers and not in assumptions?
I'm really curious about the lateral stability and the effects of the wing spoilers on this plane.
Thanks.
FlyBoyJ, will play the devil advocate here a little bit, if i may
And why if this wasn't the case? what if this plane could really fly without much problems?
Till now, i never saw any aerodynamical studies on the ho-9, you can find any Pollars of almost any plane of the WW2, but you can't find any about the horten, at least i never could find anything about it.
So my request would be: are there,somewhere, modern studies done on a model in a wind tunnel, even done by students, but something that we could actually have in numbers and not in assumptions?
I'm really curious about the lateral stability and the effects of the wing spoilers on this plane.
Thanks.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hey, dropping by, just discovered this discussion
FlyBoyJ, will play the devil advocate here a little bit, if i may
And why if this wasn't the case? what if this plane could really fly without much problems?
No one ever said it couldn't - there was talk here stating the US Government was secretly flying the aircraft and then covering it up.
I would ask model builders!
Horten Nurflugels
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
model builders long have confirmed Hortens idea of a y=sin^3 lift distribution for stability and ease of flight (Y= span in terms of parts of ten; sin^3= bell shaped distribution). The problem is that aerodynamic twist is usually the choice of opportunity to achieve this lift distribution (check ranis vortex software) and twist has other negative trade effects, which in part adds drag, equalizing any advantage of the flying wing idea.
A better approach would use differentiated airfoils at varying chord thickness, which nowadays is easy to make thanks computers but by then was often a matter of luck.
A better approach would use differentiated airfoils at varying chord thickness, which nowadays is easy to make thanks computers but by then was often a matter of luck.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
I think they probably are a little bit concerned and still hunting down what information they can on the project standards etc. Especially since it is the only one they are probably taking a lot longer over it as there is no other if something does unfortunately go wrong.
Henk
Master Sergeant
They did do interviews with the two Horten brothers and asked them for a lot of stuff and they have a lot of info on the plane, but I think they need money and people to restore her.
The Ho 229 always looked ahead of it time but it appears ultra-futuristic in your depictions... very nice. It should have been called the "Manta Ray"
Thanks for posting!
.
The Horton Brothers won the commission from Gehring to build a fighter that would be faster and least detected by radar since the English destroyed a lot of the German fighters with the "new" technology know as radar. The English had notice the German planes were approaching before they crossed the English Channel. The Horton's lost a brother in this onslaught by the English and vowed revenge to their brother by building the Horton 229 to crush the English. The plane was incredibly made mostly of wood which gave it such a light frame the invention of jet engines allowed the plane to fly much faster than any others.It was also very stealth and many generations ahead of anything else flying at the time. The plane was almost undetectable by radar, so instead of giving the Allies 35-45 mins warning they were approaching by radar they would of had about 2-4 mins advanced notice. Which would have been little the Allies could have done to ward off those planes.
One 229 was completed and was test flown until the right engine burnt out and killed the pilot flying it. During the test flight, the Horton 229 exceeded everyone expectations on dogfighting and speed. If the Horton Brothers would have been able to mass produce these planes before leaving their production hanger to avoid being captured by the Americans it would have been very interesting for the Allies.
The Horton brothers would also begin production on another plane the Horton 18 while building the second Horton 229. The Horton 18, which was promised Gehring to be 1000,1000,1000 meaning it could fly 1000 miles an hours, for 1000 miles, and deliver 1000 pounds of bombs or "nuclear weapons" so Gehring said the Germans would have in 1946. The Germans were hoping to take the offensive to the U.S. and bomb New York City or Washington D.C.
Chad Lehman
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Henk
Master Sergeant
He he he... Would love to see it in real life.
I just bumped into the Horton 229 info yesterday. And, thanks for all the research many individuals have put into this thread.
What an extraordinary plane.
It is hard to imagine that the "original" is still sequestered away in some government warehouse. I wonder what else is there.
A couple of thoughts... One notes that it's sister-plane, the Ho IX V2, being flown by one of Germany's top test pilots of the era crashed after an engine failure. And the early jet engines were somewhat unreliable. I'm wondering if the plane (with 1940's controls) lacked the stability that Horton claimed.
Flying the Original Ho 229 V3 would be a bad idea without completely updating the entire system including NEW MODERN engines... I.E. making more of a revised copy. I.E. Might as well just make a flying replica from scratch with modern engines and avionics.
So, if the "skin" is half the plane, and a true restoration would involve reskinning the plane. Then I'd vote against doing it. Just bang out some of the dents in the sheet metal, clean off some of the cobwebs, reassemble it, and put it on display as what it is, a 60 year old aircraft. Make some flying replicas for those who wish to see it fly to vintage airshows.
As far as stealth technology, in an era of using disposable gliders as troop transports, I suppose this plane had an element of stealth. But, that is more of the simplicity of the flying wing design. The wood, of course, was an abundant, cheap building material that happened to reflect radar less than aluminum.
I suppose this begs the question is whether the Horton Brothers were central to the war effort like Messerschmidt, or were they more on the periphery like Howard Hughes who was designing his wooden airplane in the USA, using wood in part because of the expense and shortage of aluminum, and of course, the extraordinary strength to weight ratio and rigidity of wood.
I suppose the other question is why this plane should stay in the USA. In many senses, the plane really belongs to the Germans. And, I'd much rather see it proudly displayed in a Berlin Museum than siting in a US Government warehouse for all of eternity.
----- Clifford -----
What an extraordinary plane.
It is hard to imagine that the "original" is still sequestered away in some government warehouse. I wonder what else is there.
A couple of thoughts... One notes that it's sister-plane, the Ho IX V2, being flown by one of Germany's top test pilots of the era crashed after an engine failure. And the early jet engines were somewhat unreliable. I'm wondering if the plane (with 1940's controls) lacked the stability that Horton claimed.
Flying the Original Ho 229 V3 would be a bad idea without completely updating the entire system including NEW MODERN engines... I.E. making more of a revised copy. I.E. Might as well just make a flying replica from scratch with modern engines and avionics.
So, if the "skin" is half the plane, and a true restoration would involve reskinning the plane. Then I'd vote against doing it. Just bang out some of the dents in the sheet metal, clean off some of the cobwebs, reassemble it, and put it on display as what it is, a 60 year old aircraft. Make some flying replicas for those who wish to see it fly to vintage airshows.
As far as stealth technology, in an era of using disposable gliders as troop transports, I suppose this plane had an element of stealth. But, that is more of the simplicity of the flying wing design. The wood, of course, was an abundant, cheap building material that happened to reflect radar less than aluminum.
I suppose this begs the question is whether the Horton Brothers were central to the war effort like Messerschmidt, or were they more on the periphery like Howard Hughes who was designing his wooden airplane in the USA, using wood in part because of the expense and shortage of aluminum, and of course, the extraordinary strength to weight ratio and rigidity of wood.
I suppose the other question is why this plane should stay in the USA. In many senses, the plane really belongs to the Germans. And, I'd much rather see it proudly displayed in a Berlin Museum than siting in a US Government warehouse for all of eternity.
----- Clifford -----
beaupower32
Tech Sergeant
Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho 229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian Museum's facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe. In early 2008, Northrop-Grumman paired up television documentary producer Michael Jorgensen, another long-time fan of the aircraft, and the National Geographic Channel to produce a documentary to determine whether the Ho 229 was, in fact, the world's first true "stealth" fighter-bomber.[2]
A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are three-fourths of an inch thick and made up of thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was indeed some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal slowed down considerably as it passed through the cone.[2]
In an experiment to determine the stealth characteristics of the design, Northrop-Grumman built a full-size reproduction of the V3, incorporating a replica glue mixture in the nose section. After an expenditure of about US$250,000 and 2,500 man-hours, Northrop's Ho 229 reproduction was tested at the company's classified radar cross-section (RCS) test range at Tejon, California, where it was placed on a 15-meter (50 ft) articulating pole and exposed to electromagnetic energy sources from various angles, using the same three frequencies used by the Chain Home radar network of the British in the early 1940s. RCS testing showed that an Ho 229 approaching the English coast from France flying at 885 km/h (550 mph) at 15 - 30 metres (50 - 100 ft) above the water would have been visible at a distance of 80% that of a Bf 109. This implies an RCS of only 40% that of a Bf 109, from the front at the Chain Home frequencies. The most visible parts of the plane were the jet inlets and the cockpit, but caused no return through smaller dimensions than the CH wavelength
Source Wiki
I watched the documentry on this, and this was very very intresting to see.
I agree. How do you restore an aircraft that was never completed? I asked Boyne this once via E-mail and didn't really get an answer. I'm not sure he fully understood my question...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
They actually did complete the aircraft (and flew it a few times for testing), it was disassembled for shipment to the U.S. (there were a few others in various stages of completion, too)
Aparently, Clifford wasn't aware that the Go229/Ho229 was made of laminated wood, not metal...
Aparently, Clifford wasn't aware that the Go229/Ho229 was made of laminated wood, not metal...
Beg pardon, I think you may be thinking about the V2, not the V3 which is in the NASM collection...
From the NASM own website...
The Museum's Horten H IX V3 is the only extant example of the world's first all-wing jet aircraft. Artisans finished the first prototype as a glider. Two Junkers 004 jet engines powered the second prototype and German test pilot Erwin Ziller completed two test flights at the controls of this aircraft, called the H IX V2 ("9-vee-two"), but he died during the third flight when one engine failed and the jet crashed. At a workshop in west central Germany in mid-April 1945, Allied ground forces recovered the center section of the H IX V3, or "Bat-Wing Ship" as one intelligence officer described it. This prototype was under construction at the time and missing its outer wing panels.
U. S. Army Air Forces Technical Intelligence specialists shipped the wing to Freeman Field, Indiana, with intermediate stops in Farnborough, England, New York, and Newark, New Jersey. The Allies had managed to recover a set of H IX outer wing panels and technicians attached the panels to the H IX V3 center section before the wing was transferred to the Smithsonian during the late 1940s.
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