Hot Tip Aircraft

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Smokey, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Smokey

    Smokey Member

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    Aircraft that should have been built
    http://mitglied.lycos.de/lastdingo/c714.htm

    Some of the best:

    Avions Marcel Bloch M.B.157
    [​IMG]
    It reached the fantastic speed of 710km/h (443mph!) under german control in 1942
    It could have flown already in 1940!

    Henschel Hs127
    [​IMG]
    The German Mosquito
    Maiden flight in 1937 or 1938.
    The german air force cancelled the best reconnaissance plane and high-speed bomber of the years 1938-1941

    North American XB-28 "Dragon"
    [​IMG]
    Data: Two turbosupercharged 2028PS (1840PS at 7620m) R-2800-11 Double Wasp radials, 599km/h at 7620m, 10000m service ceiling,
    3283km range with 2724kg bombload at 7620m altitude with 410km/h cruise speed, 11611-16888kg, 23.4m wingspan, 18.07m length, 60.84m2
    wing area, crew of five, 2724kg maximum internal bombload, 3x2 remotely controlled 12.7mm M2 MG, 3 fixed 12.7mm M2 MG firing forward.
    Compare this to the B-17G data: crew of nine or ten necessary, 16391-29710kg, same range and bombload with ONLY 293km/h cruise speed!

    Junkers Ju288A
    [​IMG]
    The top Speed of a Spitfire IX was just around 11km/h higher than that of a Ju288A with already released bombload, and the combination of
    relatively short penetration until hitting a british target (compared to attack on germany) and the extremely high cruise speed (probably 500km/h
    with two 1.000kg guided bombs) would have reduced the time from first echo on british CH radar until release of bombs down to half an hour!

    The R4/M Orkan wonder weapon, 1945
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    It was tested on Me262A-1a by the infamous elite unit JV44 and contributed a lot to the fame of the JV44 and the Me262A-1a.
    Around 60 Me262A-1a recieved each 14 R4M under each outer wing, and the Mk108 gunsight was used for this weapon, too, because of the similar ballistics. In just one sortie, 25 B-17G were killed without losses with the R4M (out of 425). But "conventional" fighters like the Fw190 had also stunning success with this weapon; a group of 24 Fw190 killed without losses 40! B-17G during a strong bomber raid in april, 1945.
    Against jet planes were faster rockets necessary than this, but it was in WW2 such a potent bomber-killer that I have to say:
    4- and 6-engine-bombers were´nt able to survive against a state-of-the art defense in 1940-1945.
    This simple small rocket would have killed all such bombers with ease, even advanced designs like the B-29, Ta400, He177...
    The irritating fact is just that it didn´t happen.
    Well, after WW2, unguided rockets became the main anti-bomber weapon of US fighters. Some of these fighters didn´t use any
    other weapons than HVAR rockets (Lockheed F-94 Starfire, for example).
    Invented in 1942, 1943 or early 1944, the R4M would have stopped the 8th Air Force daylight bombing campaign with 100% probability!
     
  2. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

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    I agree on the Bloch. Marcel Bloch built some pretty damn good planes.
     
  3. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    The R4/M first equipped a few SturmFWs and Me-262s, it led to the Mighty Mouse FFAR in post-war U.S.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    ok gents a little education. On March 18, 1945 III./JG 7 Me 262A-1a's flew a mission with the R4M missiles with 12 under each wing. the 262's fired off a salvo and some B-17's were hit. In fact it was 9./JG 7 that were the first to use the weapon in action this date. 6 B-17's were torn apart by the R4M's by 4 Luftw pilots, followed up by the rest of the 21 Me 262's of III./JG 7 wioth four 3cm kanon. 18 B-17's were shot down and 6 damaged by canon fire.

    JV 44 was to follow suit later after I./JG 7 was equipped and the two gruppen in JG 7 were to attack B-17/B-24 formations almost till wars end with the rocket as standard equipment. In fact the unit was also taking on Soviet a/c and parked a/c at airfields where the R4M did terrible damage. any Soviet MT unit was ripped to carnage on the long and fully crowded roads leading towards Berlin.

    Experiments within JG 7's arseanl also proposed the acceptance of some 24 rockets under each wing in a special wooden mock-up mount..........can U imagine the devastation if this would have been normal practice !!
     
  5. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    There were only experiments with JG 26 Doras with the R4M and no April 45 mission with R4M's was carried out against B-17's via Fw 190's.

    myth again and no Sturm Fw's had the rocket either. It has been said but I have yet to see documents that JG 4 sturms during the Ardenne used the Br 21cm's ? on ground attck missions ............

    JG 7 and JV 44 were the only units that used the R4M successfully
     
  6. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    I knew for certain that they tested R4/Ms on Fw-190s because I've seen pictures on it. Thanks for clearing that up though, that they weren't used in action by 190s.
     
  7. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Plan it is just that the Fw 190A was the best prop driven test bed the Luftwaffe had at the time ~ Prototype birds..... Example is the non operational Fw 190A with the underslung Mk 103 canon. Sure there are plenty of pics of 1 bird with it's signal codes on the fuselage/underwings but NO a/c ever fitted with this weapon went into action. the heavy a/c were suppose to be given to two operational Schlact units on the Ost front but it never materialized
     
  8. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I thought to it was used in action by Fw-190's. I did not think the only aircraft to use them operationally was the 262.
     
  9. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    sorry but yes only the 262. the 109 and 190 and the Bf 110G's used the Br 21cm rocket-mortar in action
     
  10. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Cool thanks for the clarification.

    I was just reading about them in one of my books and here is some info that I pulled out of it on the R4M.

    Initaial trials were undertaken with a Bf-110 and an Me-163A. The R4M and the EZ 42 gunsight were fitted to about 60 examples in 1945 of the Me-262A-1b.

    Operational use of this weapon brought about a dramatic increase from 1:1 to a 7:1 ratio of kills in the Luftwaffe's favour.

    The R4M was studied for use by the Ba-349, BV P.212, He-162, Hs P.136 and other projects.

    Of the initial order for 20,000 rockets, some 2500 of the approximatly 12,000 rockets built had been fired off.

    This info taken from: Lufwaffe Secret Projects Ground Attack and Special Purpose Aircraft by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode.

    Yeah I know I have been using these books as a source lately but it is just that I am currently actually reading them.
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the 262A-1a to the B was just the re-wiring of the wooden racks/fuse settings for the R4M rockets on older machines that were still fueled up ready to go on missions in 45....
     
  12. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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  13. luftwaffemesserschmitt

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    hello

    its a commen mistake by aircraft fans but the me 262 a-1b was NOT the wane fitted with r4m rockets. The only correckt designation is me 262 a-1/r7
    (rustarze 7) me 262 a-1a the a or b at the and stand for the engines and not the armarment. For example a is junkers jumo 004 and b is bmw 003 engines

    best regards jan
    (sorry for my bad englisch but i am come from holland jou now)
     
  14. DIOGENIS

    DIOGENIS Member

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    the MB 157 doesn't look so slim /aerodynamic, fitted with a radial engine in the early 40's, seems quite difficult to reach 700+ km.Anyone knows what powerplant it carried?
     
  15. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Is someone actually challenging Erich??
     
  16. luftwaffemesserschmitt

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    not challenging correckting sir lesofprimes
     
  17. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    I hope so! Challenges keep everyone on their toes. As long as no one takes it personally.
     
  18. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    There is some considerable doubt surrounding that 710km/h figure. Elsewhere, we calculated a speed of 620km/h with the new 1700hp engine, which is much more likely than 710km/h.
     
  19. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    That is not 100% true.

    Me-262A-1a had Jumo 004 engines
    Me-262A-1b also had Jumo 004 engines.
    All Me-262A-2 whether they were were A-2a or A-2b had Jumo 004 engines.

    The only 262 that did not have Jumo 004 engines was the Me-262C-2b.

    Therefore the a or b does not designate which engine was used.

    The version that used the R4M was the Me-262A-1b.
     
  20. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    =D>

    ..and that is why I love this forum. Well done.
     
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