How good (or bad) was the P-38, really?

[Hairog]

In the ETO the P-38 was the starting pitcher in long range escort missions. The Mustang was the relief pitcher and came in after the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs because the escorted bombers had devastated their factories etc. The Lightning fought the best of the best while outnumber while the P-51 fought rookies and were allowed to do fighter sweeps hence their record of more kills.

The P-38 has been systematically denigrated to cover up the deadly errors of the Bomber Mafia.

 

[drgondog]

In the ETO the P-38 was the starting pitcher in long range escort missions. The Mustang was the relief pitcher and came in after the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs because the escorted bombers had devastated their factories etc. The Lightning fought the best of the best while outnumber while the P-51 fought rookies and were allowed to do fighter sweeps hence their record of more kills.

The P-38 has been systematically denigrated to cover up the deadly errors of the Bomber Mafia.

??? So the LW was on its last legs in fall 1943? The factories were devastated? Schweinfurt and Regensburg were laid to rest and German industry shut down in fall 1943?

Hairog, we missed your introduction to our merry band of idiots that hold somewhat different views of the battle for control of German airspace before D-Day?

Can you elaborate more for those of us that obviously have no clue?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

1943 P-38 had plenty of faults (intercoolers, low mach number, cockpit heat, high maintenance, high cost etc) but it did have range. 1943 P-47 was probably a better, more survivable weapon with it's own faults (climb, turn) but it did not have range.

To say the maintenance and high cost was a major problem in 1943 is an exaggeration as during that time the US was fighting the war with almost an open checkbook. As mentioned many times, General George Kenny couldn't get enough P-38s and had to briefly settle for P-47 because P-38s weren't available. Despite the intercooler and compressibility issues, the 1943 P-38G and Hs were still able to carry the fight, especially in the PTO where it's record speaks for itself. Lockheed LISTENED to it's customer and noted issues were addressed in the J and L.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Gents - lets keep the banter to a minimum please.

 

[GrauGeist]

German industry was anything but on it's "last legs" by 1943 - their aircraft production in 1944 saw the highest numbers produced, more than any point since they started preparing for war in the 1930's.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

In the ETO the P-38 was the starting pitcher in long range escort missions. The Mustang was the relief pitcher and came in after the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs because the escorted bombers had devastated their factories etc. The Lightning fought the best of the best while outnumber while the P-51 fought rookies and were allowed to do fighter sweeps hence their record of more kills.

The P-38 has been systematically denigrated to cover up the deadly errors of the Bomber Mafia.

Someone has been watching too much "Gregs Aeroplanes" youtube channel...

Either that or you have made an excellent satire post, in which case 10/10 points.

 

[Peter Gunn]

In the ETO the P-38 was the starting pitcher in long range escort missions. The Mustang was the relief pitcher and came in after the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs because the escorted bombers had devastated their factories etc. The Lightning fought the best of the best while outnumber while the P-51 fought rookies and were allowed to do fighter sweeps hence their record of more kills.

The P-38 has been systematically denigrated to cover up the deadly errors of the Bomber Mafia.

I haven't laughed so hard since the P-39 thread.

 

[pbehn]

Sporting analogies can be taken too far, since a pitcher holds liquid, a relief pitcher conjures up a very negative image outside of the baseball world. The combined bomber offensive cant be boiled down (OMG I am doing it now) to a catch phrase and a single chart. Other charts show other sides of a discussion and as far as I know the US and UK had 4 pitchers on the field of play during the match, three of them improved dramatically while the game was taking place. This was a remarkable effort because the day before they were all told they wouldnt be needed in a game of hockey.

 

[SaparotRob]

??? So the LW was on its last legs in fall 1943? The factories were devastated? Schweinfurt and Regensburg were laid to rest and German industry shut down in fall 1943?

Hairog, we missed your introduction to our merry band of idiots that hold somewhat different views of the battle for control of German airspace before D-Day?

Can you elaborate more for those of us that obviously have no clue?

Hey! I'm not merry!

 

[SaparotRob]

German industry was anything but on it's "last legs" by 1943 - their aircraft production in 1944 saw the highest numbers produced, more than any point since they started preparing for war in the 1930's.

Even I know that.

 

[33k in the air]

German industry was anything but on it's "last legs" by 1943 - their aircraft production in 1944 saw the highest numbers produced, more than any point since they started preparing for war in the 1930's.

Annual figures can be somewhat deceptive. Monthly figures are more useful. On a monthly basis, German armaments production, as measured by Speer's armaments index, peaked in July of 1944 and fell off rapidly after that.

 

[GrauGeist]

Annual figures can be somewhat deceptive. Monthly figures are more useful. On a monthly basis, German armaments production, as measured by Speer's armaments index, peaked in July of 1944 and fell off rapidly after that.

Fair enough.
However, if we compile aircraft produced (all types) each month and then add those twelve months together for that particular year, then we have an annual sum of numbers.

Like so:
1939: 1,928
1940: 7,829
1941: 9,422
1942: 12,822
1943: 20,599
1944: 35,076
1945: 7,052

Now, considering Germany was "on it's last legs" in 1943, the numbers for 1944 (regardless when production "fell off") still showed a higher production number than the year prior.
And an interesting side-note: Germany managed to produce almost as many aircraft in the four months of 1945 as were produced in the twelve months of 1940.

 

[Ovod]

Germany also produced almost 19,000 armoured fighting vehicles (tanks, SPGs, etc) in 1944 - almost as much as the US did in the same year.

German armored fighting vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia
American armored fighting vehicle production during World War II - Wikipedia

 

[pbehn]

In the ETO the P-38 was the starting pitcher in long range escort missions. The Mustang was the relief pitcher and came in after the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs because the escorted bombers had devastated their factories etc. The Lightning fought the best of the best while outnumber while the P-51 fought rookies and were allowed to do fighter sweeps hence their record of more kills.

The P-38 has been systematically denigrated to cover up the deadly errors of the Bomber Mafia.

Such statistics are subject to the "lies, damned lies and statistics rule". On the Schweinfurt Regensburg raid it could be argued that the LW shot down as many aircraft as they possibly could at the time. So sending twice as many bombers would reduce the percentage losses by half. This was in part the basis of day and night time bombing campaigns. Without considering how many bombers were used and what they were doing the chart means little.

 

[Hairog]

Sorry, I thought the chart and the quote below it were pretty easy to comprehend. I'll dumb it down from now on.

Another apology is in order. I should have specified the Petroleum industry. If you don't have fuel you can't train new pilots.

I suggest that you read my post again but slowly this time.

I never said that the Luftwaffe was on it's last legs in the fall of 1943. Again I refer to the chart and quote below it. The Luftwaffe was defeated between September 1943 when the P-38 was flying the large majority of long range escort missions and March of 1944.

In the time period under discussion, the P-38 flew 6338 long range escort sorties, while the P-51 racked up 4722, but only 736 with the 8th. The remainder of 2688 were with the 9th Air Force.

Look at the chart again and you will see that the bomber losses dropped immediately after the P-38 was allowed to join the fight despite Hap Arnold attempts at sabotage by not allowing the introduction of external fuel tanks. Hap Arnold did many great things but he really screwed the pooch concerning bomber escorts. To cover his tracks, the myths about the Lightning's role in the ETO have erroneously and constantly been repeated.

Once the P-38 started escorting the bombers the losses plummeted and the bombers were free to drop bombs on the fuel production sites. Losses went from an unsustainable over 7% to a war winning 2.25%. The P-38 did it's job to perfection and the bombers did the rest.

As to escaping a P-38, say you got too close to the bombers and the Lightnings started to engage. No problem you say and just dive away. That dive took you out of the fight as you would be unable to again get into position to attack as the bombers flew on. Who won that fight? Who fulfilled it's mission?
The attacker was suppose to shoot down the bombers. Instead it ran. The P-38s, though out their period of long range escort. were wedded to the bombers and had strict order to stay with them. The had no opportunity to chase fleeing fighters. If they had their kill numbers would have soared.
The escaping 109/190 starts his dive and pulls away from the P-38 until 25,000 feet. Then he is in deep shit because the p-38 starts to reel him in and he can do nothing to escape. The Lightning can out turn him, out climb him, out dive him and has the height advantage.

The P-51 was allowed to finish the job and chase the enemy to his base, if need be and shoot him down as he tries to land.

The Lockheed engineers invented numerous improvements to simplify and automate many of the critical functions. One combined 4 functions into one control lever. They were all rejected by the powers that be for various reasons mostly concerning the possibility of slowing down production. Again Lockheed provided numerous solutions that would have prevented any slow up and they were again rejected.

Hap and the rest of the Bomber Mafia wanted the Lightning to succeed but also wanted to keep quiet the fact that they had one of the best escorts available from day one. Despite numerous warnings and examples from the Spanish Civil war, they sent unescorted bombers and their crews to their destruction. In order to keep their career's alive, they had to play down the P-38 and it's obvious capabilities and contributions. They had to claim that the Lightning was not doing the job so they had no capable aircraft until the P-51. The facts prove otherwise and the escorted bombers got through.

 

[pbehn]

Sorry, I thought the chart and the quote below it were pretty easy to comprehend. I'll dumb it down from now on.
Look at the chart again

I fear this is not going to end well. You look at the chart again and tell me how many bombers were in operation, not a percentage of losses. 1 bomber lost from a flight of 10 is 10%, 10 bombers lost from 1,000 is 1%.

 

[Hairog]

The chart and percentage of loss means a great deal. The difference of 7 vs 3% loss rate saved the daylight bombing campaign. Do the math, you had virtually no chance of flying 25 missions and surviving with 7% losses. Moral was in the toilet because the bomber crews could do the math.

 

[ClayO]

I don't recall that being used in combat with the P-38, though I've read many accounts of bombers having to resort to that procedure in order to steer their ship after catastrophic damage.
In order to manipulate the P-38's engines indepently, the throttle quadrant had to be uncoupled and then each throttle maneuvered in order to perform the needed move(s) - that is a rather complex procedure in the heat of battle.

I remember watching a show on the Military History Channel (I don't remember which one) where a P-38 pilot (I don't remember who) was diving with a FW-190 on his tail; when his altitude got low enough to force him to level off, he used differential thrust and crossed controls to put the airplane into a skid; as the FW-190 shot past him, he straightened his plane out, applied full throttle and shot the FW-190 down. I remember wondering if he had practiced that maneuver, came up with it on the spot, or maybe had time to think of it during the dive? Any way you look at it, it was a helluva piece of flying.

 

[pbehn]

The chart and percentage of loss means a great deal. The difference of 7 vs 3% loss rate saved the daylight bombing campaign. Do the math, you had virtually no chance of flying 25 missions and surviving with 7% losses. Moral was in the toilet because the bomber crews could do the math.

When did the US forces start bombing missions only with P-38s as escorts? That is without Spitfires, P-47s and P-51s?

 

[Hairog]

Long Range Bombing Missions. Please think before you post.