How good (or bad) was the P-38, really?

[FLYBOYJ]

"The TRUE maximum speed of a P-38L was not the much published 414 mph. This reflects Military Power, not War Emergency Power. In WEP, a clean P-38L could exceed 440 mph. The P-38J with its lower rated engines could pull speeds in the low to mid 420's."

In the early 1990s I was told similar by none other than Tony LeVier.

 

[Hairog]

Yet the myth continues on.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Wiki link I posted earlier said that US fighter serviceability dropped during big week from 72 to 65%. I dont have a dog in the fight, I cant see how a case can be made for any of the three doing it on its own, all three were needed at the time, even if the P-51 was the best of them, no one would wait until all squadrons had them.

And the RAF provided Spitfires to escort when possible, of course depending on the target/range.

 

[Hairog]

The quote at the bottom of the chart I posted is from the conclusion of the oft mentioned Murray. He states the the Luftwaffe was defeated as an effective fighting force during the period of September 43 through March 44.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,

The P-51 did have a longer range than the P-38. Check out the tactical planning charts for the P-51D and P-38J-25/L found at

WWII Aircraft Performance

As an aside, reviewing my late uncle's mission list (he was a ball turret gunner out of Italy 9/44-11/44), all of his really deep missions (deep being determined by time in the air), he mentions being escorted exclusively by P-51's.

As for the P-38's speed, I an sure one of the other forum members can explain why that claim is suspect. Remember, many of the high-perfomance racers at Reno are P-51's. There is a reason for that.

As for out-flying German interceptors, according to the Mighty Eighth War Manual, by Roger Freeman, page 79, the P-38's tried to induce the German aircraft into horizontal combat instead of vertical combat. Please feel free to review the comments in post 42.

IMHO what hurt the P-38 the most was its distinctive shape. Leonard Carson, top scoring Mustang ace of the 357th FG said "Whichever pilot saw the other one first had the winning edge." An Allied or Axis pilot who saw a radial or inline-engined aircraft at a distance did not know if it was friend or foe. They had to close the distance for proper identification before they decided what to do. There was no problem of identification if the aircraft in the distance was twin-engined and twin boomed. As said by many German pilots, the distinctive shape allowed them to attack or disengage, depending on the situation.

My .03 cents worth (Inflation)

Eagledad

 

[Hairog]

You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.

Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie

The Lockheed P-38 by ditto

The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess

JG26 by Donald Caldwell

Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick

1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall

An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins

Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*

The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*

The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball

Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells

America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*

Big Week by Glenn Infield

The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*

To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*

Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway

The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications

Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory." also published by Widewing Books

Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning

Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201; Title: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning; Abstract: Technical and historical analysis of Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter aircraft; Published:October, 1992; Updated: 1999, 2010.

www.ausairpower.net

The P-38 (C.C. Jordan; MakinKid; CDB100620)

https://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm

The Amazing Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Best Plane of WW2?

With its radical yet impressive design, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was a graceful fighter aircraft that epitomized a new level of craftsmanship in

www.warhistoryonline.com

17 Things You Never Knew About The P-38 Lightning

It was controversial, intimidating, and set countless records in WWII. Check out these 17 little known facts about the P-38 Lightning.

www.boldmethod.com

P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?

If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to...

ww2aircraft.net

P-38F Tactical Trials

Aviation Personnel Fatalities in World War II

Related Resources: US Navy Personnel in World War II: Service and Casualty Statistics World War II Casualties

www.history.navy.mil

Did the P-51 Mustang Defeat the Luftwaffe? | R-bloggers

14 October 1943 - 291 US Army Air Force (USAAF) heavy bombers took off from England to attack a Ball Bearing factory in the heart of Germany. The goal was to destroy the Nazi war machine’s fighting ability and means of war production. As the bomb...

www.r-bloggers.com

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/StatDigest/aafsd-2.html#t54

P-51 problems...

Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[GrauGeist]

Quite the dissertation for someone who has better things to do...

 

[33k in the air]

You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead.

Your claims, your burden of proof.

If you can't be bothered to have your references handy when making a claim, that failing is yours.

ETA: This is especially true if you are going against the prevailing point of view on a matter. You set yourself a higher hill to climb, and thus more specific supporting material is going to be needed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

As for the P-38's speed, I an sure one of the other forum members can explain why that claim is suspect. Remember, many of the high-perfomance racers at Reno are P-51's. There is a reason for that.

Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!

 

[33k in the air]

The quote at the bottom of the chart I posted is from the conclusion of the oft mentioned Murray. He states the the Luftwaffe was defeated as an effective fighting force during the period of September 43 through March 44.

Murray, Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945, page 302:

What is almost incomprehensible is the fact that the Germans paid so little attention to the attrition that had occurred in France and over Britain. Not until the Wehrmacht was deep in the Soviet Union did Göring finally authorize Milch to bring order to the aircraft industry. By that time, it was too late. British production programs had a two-year head start, while the American programs were at least a year ahead. If that handicap were not enough, Milch faced a constant, uphill battle to persuade the general staff to accept as a necessity the production increases that he proposed. That failure to gear German aircraft production to a worst case analysis of what Anglo-American industry might turn out cost the Luftwaffe the air war in 1943 and 1944. One cannot stress enough that administrative, strategic, and productive decisions in the 1940 to 1941 time frame insured the permanent inferiority of Germany's air effort throughout the remainder of the war. The basis of those decisions lay in an overestimation of the Reich's strength and a contemptuous arrogance that dismissed the Russians as subhumans and the Americans as capable of building only radios and refrigerators. Disdainful of their enemies and proud of their victories, the Germans were sure that their technological expertise and military competence could master any threat.

Page 317:

The Luftwaffe losses in the summer and early fall likewise forced the Germans to rethink their strategy. The threat to the armament industries, particularly the aircraft industry, and the extent of losses in the Mediterranean, on the eastern front, and over the Reich, gave the Germans no choice but to reorder their priorities. They had to cut air commitments in the Mediterranean and in the east to provide more fighters for defense of the homeland. But Hitler was unwilling in 1943 to reorder his production priorities completely and to give unqualified emphasis to building fighters. This undoubtedly made the task of the American strategic air forces easier when the Eighth returned to the offensive. The great air battle was not a painless struggle as bomber losses through April 1944 indicate. But the combination of long-range escorts, with an overwhelming productive advantage, enabled Eighth to swamp Germany's defenders. The Americans, with their sustained pressure, shattered the Luftwaffe's fighter force to the point where they were no longer a serious factor in the air war. By the time of the Normandy invasion, the Americans had won general air superiority over Europe, while attacks on the synthetic fuel industry insured that the Luftwaffe would not recover. Not only did it no longer have the necessary fuel but there was no hope to train new pilots in the numbers needed to meet the daylight threat.

 

[GrauGeist]

Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!

Lefty used to run a P-38 at the Reno Air Races.

 

[eagledad]

FlyboyJ

I defer to your judgement on speeds at Reno . as I understand that you have had the privilege to attend and work at the races However. ln looking at the Tactical Planning Charts, the tests of the P-38, P-47, and P-51 versus the A6M5, and the test of the P-51B vs P-38J in Ethell's book on the Mustang, the P-38 is always slower. I have a copy of the graph from Dr Kopp's first version of his P-38 Paper which was supplied to him by Lockheed which does show the 440 speed and have attached it below.

FWIW

Eagledad

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Lefty used to run a P-38 at the Reno Air Races.

He did and it was more of a novelty than anything else. P-38s were also run in in the post war years with less than stellar results. Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.

It's one thing to boom and zoom in combat, it's a whole other ballgame going around in circles for 5 laps full throttle.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FlyboyJ

I defer to your judgement on speeds at Reno . as I understand that you have had the privilege to attend and work at the races However. ln looking at the Tactical Planning Charts, the tests of the P-38, P-47, and P-51 versus the A6M5, and the test of the P-51B vs P-38J in Ethell's book on the Mustang, the P-38 is always slower. I have a copy of the graph from Dr Kopp's first version of his P-38 Paper which was supplied to him by Lockheed which does show the 440 speed and have attached it below.

FWIW

Eagledad

Not disagreeing. Many sources will show the P-38 slower however I think there might have been a wink and handshake attempt not to encourage additional speed from an aircraft that had compressibility issues, even though those issues were addressed in the later versions, and this is just my oppinion.

See my last post about P-38s running at Reno (and other course events). You need to have the speed and acceleration around a course while holding a line in a continual turn. IMO the best aircraft that did that were the P-51, Bearcat and P-39/P-63.

 

[GrauGeist]

He did and it was more of a novelty than anything else. P-38s were also run in in the post war years with less than stellar results. Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.

It's one thing to boom and zoom in combat, it's a whole other ballgame going around in circles for 5 laps full throttle.

Just pointing out that contrary to our P-38 Expert (God...why does that sound familiar??), there were other types that showed at Reno (and Cleveland).
Yak-9, Spitfire, F8F, Fw190, dh Mosquito, P-47 and so on have competed in the past, but the P-51 had the numbers and spare parts to make it a preeminent competitor.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.

I saw him win a race in that plane at Miami (new Tamiami) in 1972.

 

[33k in the air]

At least 3 escort missions were flown by the P-38 from Manado to the oil fields at Balikpapan, a distance of 2200 miles. The first mission included quite a dog fight that lasted a good 30 minutes and used up a lot of fuel. The end result was 36 Japanese fighters destroyed.

Quoting from Development of the Long-Range Escort Fighter (USAF Historical Study No. 136)
p.251-253 of the PDF
(emphasis added)
__________________

On the 10th [of October], 16 P-47's of the 35th Group and 18 P-38's of the 8th and 49th Groups, flying from Morotai, escorted 125 B-24's to Balikpapan, some 845 miles, where the target was one of the largest oil refineries serving the Japanese. The mission called for the P-47's to range ahead and sweep the area on an "offensive escort," while the P-38's lingered behind. Nearing the target, the P-47's encountered approximately 40 enemy planes, and in the ensuing combat 9 enemy aircraft were destroyed, and 4 others probably destroyed in action between Balikpapan and Manggar airdrome . . .

On the second mission, some 100 Liberators dropped 125 tons of bombs on the same target. Fifteen P-47's of the 35th Group and 29 P-38's of the 8th, 49th, and 475th Groups took part in the escort. The P-47's, repeating their performance of four days before, were again the "offensive escort", and again saw most of the day's fighter action. Their opposition numbered between 35 and 40 enemy fighters. In the ensuing combat the Thunderbolts claimed 19 planes and probably destroyed 3 more. P-38 escort, in addition, brought the combined score to 35 destroyed and 5 probables . . .

The success of these missions resulted from much preliminary planning and experimentation. To provide escort over such a long distance, it had been necessary to increase fighter range beyond that of normal operations. Engineers experimented with internal and external gasoline tanks, collected cruising data, and worked out endurance charts. Before these missions took place, the fighters, including late model P-47's and P-38J's with leading edge wing tanks, were equipped with jettisonable tanks. External tanks of 310- and 165-gallon capacity were available in limited quantities. Two 310-gallon tanks constituted an overload for the fighters, even if enough had been readily available to equip all the planes. Two 165-gallon tanks were not sufficient. Consequently, each plane received one 310-gallon tank under one wing and and one 165-gallon tank under the other. This arrangement, combined with the technique of cruise control, permitted the fighters to reach their target and return with some fuel to spare. The fighters for these missions staged out of Morotai after a hasty extension of the runway.
__________________

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Pbehn,
As I stated earlier. On long range escort missions, the P-38 were always wedded to the bombers and were not allowed to take the fight to the enemy. This meant in addition to not getting all the kills that the other fighters got during the same period, they were constantly getting bounced. In addition they were frequently outnumbered and a significant number of missions the ratio was as high as 10-1. Yet the bombers got through.

Shooting down rookies did not win the air war in the ETO. Preventing them from becoming trained before the P-51 took over, did.

SOURCES>

 

[Deleted member 68059]

You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.

Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie

The Lockheed P-38 by ditto

The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess

JG26 by Donald Caldwell

Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick

1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall

An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins

Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*

The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*

The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball

Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells

America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*

Big Week by Glenn Infield

The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*

To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*

Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway

The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications

Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory." also published by Widewing Books

Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning

Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201; Title: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning; Abstract: Technical and historical analysis of Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter aircraft; Published:October, 1992; Updated: 1999, 2010.

www.ausairpower.net

The P-38 (C.C. Jordan; MakinKid; CDB100620)

https://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm

The Amazing Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Best Plane of WW2?

With its radical yet impressive design, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was a graceful fighter aircraft that epitomized a new level of craftsmanship in

www.warhistoryonline.com

17 Things You Never Knew About The P-38 Lightning

It was controversial, intimidating, and set countless records in WWII. Check out these 17 little known facts about the P-38 Lightning.

www.boldmethod.com

P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?

If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to...

ww2aircraft.net

P-38F Tactical Trials

Aviation Personnel Fatalities in World War II

Related Resources: US Navy Personnel in World War II: Service and Casualty Statistics World War II Casualties

www.history.navy.mil

Did the P-51 Mustang Defeat the Luftwaffe? | R-bloggers

14 October 1943 - 291 US Army Air Force (USAAF) heavy bombers took off from England to attack a Ball Bearing factory in the heart of Germany. The goal was to destroy the Nazi war machine’s fighting ability and means of war production. As the bomb...

www.r-bloggers.com

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/StatDigest/aafsd-2.html#t54

P-51 problems...

Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...

ww2aircraft.net

Umm, no, its because they know you`re almost certainly wrong and understandably expect you to have data which supports your assertions.

Which is why you`ve posted a huge list of "stuff" (none of which is archival, naturally) and NO page numbers. Knowing of course, that nobody will go and
read it all on the off chance that somewhere they`ll "Happen" across some writing which might support the various wildly innacurate claims you`ve made.

When someone asks me "sources" they`ll get page numbers, and if required, a screenshot of the actual paragraph.

If you dont have that, dont expect anyone to take you seriously. This is a "forum", for chat, but if you want to make wild claims, dont expect us to all just say "oh, ok." without evidence.

 

[pbehn]

"Why didnt they shoot down the LW aces who were claiming bombers destroyed throughout the period, were rookies bouncing P-38s?"

Oh my... Do you know how the leading ace of WW2 got his kills?
"Hartmann's instinct was to select an easy target or withdraw and seek a more favorable situation.[18]​ Once the attack was over, the rule was to vacate the area; survival was paramount. Another attack could be executed if the pilot could re-enter the combat zone with the advantage.[36]​ "

I suggest that many of the bomber kills were stragglers, tail end Charlies, already damaged by flak etc. From many a high scoring pilot's stories, I suggest that they avoided a bomber stream that had escorts and they found another target or were chased away. Again who wins the battle in the long run? Is it the pilots who complete their mission or the ones who shoot down the most planes.

As stated the pilots that our rookie flyers were fighting against were the best of the best and those rookies, flying the P-38 won. By the time the P-51 took over in March 1944, those pilots were gone. Galland was visiting one of his best units and discovered that the commander had the most combat hours. He had 60.

"I posted the numbers of escorts used in Big Week that is Feb 1944, the P-47 was by far the most numerous then the P-38 in slightly higher numbers than the P-51 but P-51s scored higher than P-38s."

And I posted that the P-47 was the short range escort and did a fine job. The Jug is denigrated almost as much as the P-38.

How does a straggler become a straggler?