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In the early 1990s I was told similar by none other than Tony LeVier."The TRUE maximum speed of a P-38L was not the much published 414 mph. This reflects Military Power, not War Emergency Power. In WEP, a clean P-38L could exceed 440 mph. The P-38J with its lower rated engines could pull speeds in the low to mid 420's."
And the RAF provided Spitfires to escort when possible, of course depending on the target/range.The Wiki link I posted earlier said that US fighter serviceability dropped during big week from 72 to 65%. I dont have a dog in the fight, I cant see how a case can be made for any of the three doing it on its own, all three were needed at the time, even if the P-51 was the best of them, no one would wait until all squadrons had them.
You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead.
Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!As for the P-38's speed, I an sure one of the other forum members can explain why that claim is suspect. Remember, many of the high-perfomance racers at Reno are P-51's. There is a reason for that.
The quote at the bottom of the chart I posted is from the conclusion of the oft mentioned Murray. He states the the Luftwaffe was defeated as an effective fighting force during the period of September 43 through March 44.
Lefty used to run a P-38 at the Reno Air Races.Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!
He did and it was more of a novelty than anything else. P-38s were also run in in the post war years with less than stellar results. Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.Lefty used to run a P-38 at the Reno Air Races.
Not disagreeing. Many sources will show the P-38 slower however I think there might have been a wink and handshake attempt not to encourage additional speed from an aircraft that had compressibility issues, even though those issues were addressed in the later versions, and this is just my oppinion.FlyboyJ
I defer to your judgement on speeds at Reno. as I understand that you have had the privilege to attend and work at the races However. ln looking at the Tactical Planning Charts, the tests of the P-38, P-47, and P-51 versus the A6M5, and the test of the P-51B vs P-38J in Ethell's book on the Mustang, the P-38 is always slower. I have a copy of the graph from Dr Kopp's first version of his P-38 Paper which was supplied to him by Lockheed which does show the 440 speed and have attached it below.
FWIW
Eagledad
Just pointing out that contrary to our P-38 Expert (God...why does that sound familiar??), there were other types that showed at Reno (and Cleveland).He did and it was more of a novelty than anything else. P-38s were also run in in the post war years with less than stellar results. Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.
It's one thing to boom and zoom in combat, it's a whole other ballgame going around in circles for 5 laps full throttle.
I saw him win a race in that plane at Miami (new Tamiami) in 1972.Gary Levitz ran a clipped wing 38 in the early 70s as well.
At least 3 escort missions were flown by the P-38 from Manado to the oil fields at Balikpapan, a distance of 2200 miles. The first mission included quite a dog fight that lasted a good 30 minutes and used up a lot of fuel. The end result was 36 Japanese fighters destroyed.
Pbehn,
As I stated earlier. On long range escort missions, the P-38 were always wedded to the bombers and were not allowed to take the fight to the enemy. This meant in addition to not getting all the kills that the other fighters got during the same period, they were constantly getting bounced. In addition they were frequently outnumbered and a significant number of missions the ratio was as high as 10-1. Yet the bombers got through.
Shooting down rookies did not win the air war in the ETO. Preventing them from becoming trained before the P-51 took over, did.
You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.
Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie
The Lockheed P-38 by ditto
The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess
JG26 by Donald Caldwell
Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick
1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall
An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins
Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*
The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*
The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball
Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells
America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*
Big Week by Glenn Infield
The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*
To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*
Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications
Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory." also published by Widewing Books
Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201; Title: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning; Abstract: Technical and historical analysis of Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter aircraft; Published:October, 1992; Updated: 1999, 2010.www.ausairpower.net
The Amazing Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Best Plane of WW2?
With its radical yet impressive design, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was a graceful fighter aircraft that epitomized a new level of craftsmanship inwww.warhistoryonline.com
17 Things You Never Knew About The P-38 Lightning
It was controversial, intimidating, and set countless records in WWII. Check out these 17 little known facts about the P-38 Lightning.www.boldmethod.com
P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?
If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to...ww2aircraft.net
Aviation Personnel Fatalities in World War II
Related Resources: US Navy Personnel in World War II: Service and Casualty Statistics World War II Casualtieswww.history.navy.mil
Did the P-51 Mustang Defeat the Luftwaffe? | R-bloggers
14 October 1943 - 291 US Army Air Force (USAAF) heavy bombers took off from England to attack a Ball Bearing factory in the heart of Germany. The goal was to destroy the Nazi war machine’s fighting ability and means of war production. As the bomb...www.r-bloggers.com
P-51 problems...
Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...ww2aircraft.net
How does a straggler become a straggler?"Why didnt they shoot down the LW aces who were claiming bombers destroyed throughout the period, were rookies bouncing P-38s?"
Oh my... Do you know how the leading ace of WW2 got his kills?
"Hartmann's instinct was to select an easy target or withdraw and seek a more favorable situation.[18] Once the attack was over, the rule was to vacate the area; survival was paramount. Another attack could be executed if the pilot could re-enter the combat zone with the advantage.[36] "
I suggest that many of the bomber kills were stragglers, tail end Charlies, already damaged by flak etc. From many a high scoring pilot's stories, I suggest that they avoided a bomber stream that had escorts and they found another target or were chased away. Again who wins the battle in the long run? Is it the pilots who complete their mission or the ones who shoot down the most planes.
As stated the pilots that our rookie flyers were fighting against were the best of the best and those rookies, flying the P-38 won. By the time the P-51 took over in March 1944, those pilots were gone. Galland was visiting one of his best units and discovered that the commander had the most combat hours. He had 60.
"I posted the numbers of escorts used in Big Week that is Feb 1944, the P-47 was by far the most numerous then the P-38 in slightly higher numbers than the P-51 but P-51s scored higher than P-38s."
And I posted that the P-47 was the short range escort and did a fine job. The Jug is denigrated almost as much as the P-38.