I know, I mentioned them in an earlier post. I think they were used for withdrawal quite late in the piece.
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I know, I mentioned them in an earlier post. I think they were used for withdrawal quite late in the piece.And the RAF provided Spitfires to escort when possible, of course depending on the target/range.
The Luftwaffe was defeated between September 1943 when the P-38 was flying the large majority of long range escort missions and March of 1944.
You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.
Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie
The Lockheed P-38 by ditto
The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess
JG26 by Donald Caldwell
Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick
1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall
An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins
Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*
The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*
The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball
Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells
America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*
Big Week by Glenn Infield
The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*
To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*
Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications
Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory." also published by Widewing Books
Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201; Title: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning; Abstract: Technical and historical analysis of Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter aircraft; Published:October, 1992; Updated: 1999, 2010.www.ausairpower.net
The Amazing Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Best Plane of WW2?
With its radical yet impressive design, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was a graceful fighter aircraft that epitomized a new level of craftsmanship inwww.warhistoryonline.com
17 Things You Never Knew About The P-38 Lightning
It was controversial, intimidating, and set countless records in WWII. Check out these 17 little known facts about the P-38 Lightning.www.boldmethod.com
P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?
If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to...ww2aircraft.net
Aviation Personnel Fatalities in World War II
Related Resources: US Navy Personnel in World War II: Service and Casualty Statistics World War II Casualtieswww.history.navy.mil
Did the P-51 Mustang Defeat the Luftwaffe? | R-bloggers
14 October 1943 - 291 US Army Air Force (USAAF) heavy bombers took off from England to attack a Ball Bearing factory in the heart of Germany. The goal was to destroy the Nazi war machine’s fighting ability and means of war production. As the bomb...www.r-bloggers.com
P-51 problems...
Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...ww2aircraft.net
Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!
How about looking to sources of 8th AF missions, followed by RAF, beginning May 12, 1944. You should acquire Mighty Eighth War Diary by Freeman, Actual knowledge based on facts should help remove the many misconceptions you bring here. Oh, that is the 'official start date of the 'Oil Plan' execution."The Oil Plan didn't (officially) start until after D-Day."
Officially, that's a big qualifier.
You should look to JG2 Kommodore Egon Meyer's introduction of company front attacks in November 1942, with Galland modification to stay at altitude to fly through, turn, re-group, fly ahead, turn and attack again."Why didnt they shoot down the LW aces who were claiming bombers destroyed throughout the period, were rookies bouncing P-38s?"
Oh my... Do you know how the leading ace of WW2 got his kills?
"Hartmann's instinct was to select an easy target or withdraw and seek a more favorable situation.[18] Once the attack was over, the rule was to vacate the area; survival was paramount. Another attack could be executed if the pilot could re-enter the combat zone with the advantage.[36] "
Total P-38 VCs in ETO through 1943 ----->29; P-51B ------>8As stated the pilots that our rookie flyers were fighting against were the best of the best and those rookies, flying the P-38 won. By the time the P-51 took over in March 1944, those pilots were gone. Galland was visiting one of his best units and discovered that the commander had the most combat hours. He had 60.
Nobody is 'denigrating either the P-38 or P-47 importance. The results achieved by Mustangs over P-38 and P-47 were due to combined long(er) range and superior performance vs Bf 109 and Fw 190."I posted the numbers of escorts used in Big Week that is Feb 1944, the P-47 was by far the most numerous then the P-38 in slightly higher numbers than the P-51 but P-51s scored higher than P-38s."
And I posted that the P-47 was the short range escort and did a fine job. The Jug is denigrated almost as much as the P-38.
Sigh. P-38FG and P51FG few EXACTLY the same mission profile for escort. The numbers of actual LR escorts AVAILABLE (P-38 vs P-51) dictated that a few fighters covered a BD to their targets. They, and actually P-47FGs also, by the nature of the relay system of escort from Landfall to Target, made ANY fighter group prey to a larger concentrated attack by LW.Pbehn,
As I stated earlier. On long range escort missions, the P-38 were always wedded to the bombers and were not allowed to take the fight to the enemy. This meant in addition to not getting all the kills that the other fighters got during the same period, they were constantly getting bounced. In addition they were frequently outnumbered and a significant number of missions the ratio was as high as 10-1. Yet the bombers got through.
29 total victory credits through 1943 is hardly 'attrition' of LW rookie OR experienced pilots. And BTW many were twin engine fighters.Shooting down rookies did not win the air war in the ETO. Preventing them from becoming trained before the P-51 took over, did.
I saw what you did there, full marks Sir. However two of Hairog's sources are threads on this forum which you have posted in so I suppose its only fair.By your logic, the scourge of the LW Day Fighter force was P-38? Care to discuss actual data? Source USAF 85, Dr. Olynyk, Bill Marshall ad Lowell Ford "P-51B Mustang; North American's Bastard Stepchild that saved 8th AF" pg 295.
The shape is similar to the Fokker G.I Faucheur and the Swedish J-21a.I think everyone is used to it's shape now but looking closely at it and really thinking about it , it really was quite different to anything out there, a product of the experimentation of the late 30's which produced some quite far out designs.
You should acquire Mighty Eighth War Diary by Freeman
As a side step. I put up a few racers p-39 p-63 in my ebay threads. Did not do too badly it seems. And indeed not many p-38 i can find racing. A bunch made it as executive fun planes it seems.Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!
The best I think a P-38 did in a major pylon race was the 1946 Thompson Trophy where one took 2nd place behind a highly modified P-39 flown by Tex Johnson (Tony LeVier was flying the P-38)As a side step. I put up a few racers p-39 p-63 in my ebay threads. Did not do too badly it seems. And indeed not many p-38 i can find racing. A bunch made it as executive fun planes it seems.
You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.
Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie
The Lockheed P-38 by ditto
The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess
JG26 by Donald Caldwell
Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick
1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall
An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins
Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*
The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*
The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball
Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells
America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*
Big Week by Glenn Infield
Finally a reference of significance. You might have quoted the decision by Gen Barney Giles in summer 1943 that the Mustang was to be the preferred fighter in ETO pp 137-138 and the discussions on Spaatz/Leigh-Mallory and Arnold-Portal spats to gain control of the P-51B for ETO/8th AF.The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*
To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*
Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications
P-51 problems...
Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...ww2aircraft.net
Hartmann has a very bad rep claims vs archive. Even when considered that in the fight not all can be clear. Erich Hartmann's individual victories researched - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum"Why didnt they shoot down the LW aces who were claiming bombers destroyed throughout the period, were rookies bouncing P-38s?"
Oh my... Do you know how the leading ace of WW2 got his kills?
"Hartmann's instinct was to select an easy target or withdraw and seek a more favorable situation.[18] Once the attack was over, the rule was to vacate the area; survival was paramount. Another attack could be executed if the pilot could re-enter the combat zone with the advantage.[36] "
I suggest that many of the bomber kills were stragglers, tail end Charlies, already damaged by flak etc. From many a high scoring pilot's stories, I suggest that they avoided a bomber stream that had escorts and they found another target or were chased away. Again who wins the battle in the long run? Is it the pilots who complete their mission or the ones who shoot down the most planes.
As stated the pilots that our rookie flyers were fighting against were the best of the best and those rookies, flying the P-38 won. By the time the P-51 took over in March 1944, those pilots were gone. Galland was visiting one of his best units and discovered that the commander had the most combat hours. He had 60.
"I posted the numbers of escorts used in Big Week that is Feb 1944, the P-47 was by far the most numerous then the P-38 in slightly higher numbers than the P-51 but P-51s scored higher than P-38s."
And I posted that the P-47 was the short range escort and did a fine job. The Jug is denigrated almost as much as the P-38.
Is it just me or is there a lot of P-39 claims…There have been several researchers who have looked into Hartmann's claims and depending who you speak to it can be as high as 45% off! People take offense to this as we've been somewhat programed to believe that Hartmann was the GOAT, but as we are now able to more accurately verify combat records Hartmann may not be the highest scoring fighter pilot of all time, like it or not.
And not a single P-38 in the lot...Is it just me or is there a lot of P-39 claims…
People take offense to this as we've been somewhat programed to believe that Hartmann was the GOAT . . .
He was not. The thought that the german claiming systeem was airtight has been proven wrong many times. Plse read the link. It is no wonder Hartmann was not popular during ww2 and after 45 in his new job. There is a reason he was not made a general post war i think.There have been several researchers who have looked into Hartmann's claims and depending who you speak to it can be as high as 45% accurate! People take offense to this as we've been somewhat programed to believe that Hartmann was the GOAT, but as we are now able to more accurately verify combat records Hartmann may not be the highest scoring fighter pilot of all time, like it or not.