I know, I mentioned them in an earlier post. I think they were used for withdrawal quite late in the piece.
How good (or bad) was the P-38, really? (1 Viewer)
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Shortround6
Major General
From AHT, other sources may vary.
55th Fighter group goes operational in England Oct 15th 1943
What long range missions were flown in Sept?
By Oct 21st the 55th had flown some fighter sweeps and limited bomber escort missions with many mechanical difficulties.
"Nov 3rd '43 P-38s of the 55th Fighter Group escort bombers to Wilhelmshaven, Germany and see initial combat, shooting down 3 planes without loss to themselves."
So P-38s didn't cross the border into Germany until NOV?
They shot down no planes in Oct in addition to shooting down no planes in Sept?
Nov 5th the 55th escorts bombers to Munster.
Nov 13th, the 55th escorts bombers to Bremen
Nov 29th the 55th and a few planes from the 20th escort bombers to Bremen again.
Not looking good so far, I may very well be missing missions, but the LONG RANGE escort missions seem to be 20-50 miles over the Dutch border.
No LONG RANGE missions in in 1943?
P-38s did for long range missions later but claiming they did much work at all in 1943 (compared to the P-47s) in the ETO is false The 2nd fighter group of P-38s went operational After the First group of P-51a went operational.
Dec 13th 43 the 354th fighter group sends 46 P-51s to Kiel Germany using 75 gallon drop tanks, the 55th FG sends P-38s also using 75 gallon drop tanks.
The 20th fighter group doesn't become operational as a group(flies a mission as a group, individual squadrons had flown missions) until Dec 28th.
We are to believe that the P-38, equipping one fighter group smashed the Luftwaffe before the P-51 showed up?
As shown by others the P-38 made up just a bit more of the escorts compared to the P-51 from Jan through March with the P-47s making up by far the majority of the fighters used.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
You know someone is not too confident of their own answers and questions when they start asking for references. I'm tire of playing Wack a Mole for tonight. I got better things to do. If you want to look up all my facts and figures you just go right ahead. I'm not presenting a doctoral thesis. I was just trying to correct a concentrated effort by some self serving members of the totally and tragically wrong Bomber Mafia to cover to cover their asses and to denigrate the most strategically important American fighter of WW2.
Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie
The Lockheed P-38 by ditto
The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess
JG26 by Donald Caldwell
Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick
1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall
An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins
Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*
The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*
The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by Robert Ball
Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells
America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*
Big Week by Glenn Infield
The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*
To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*
Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications
Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory." also published by Widewing Books
Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
Technical Report APA-TR-2010-1201; Title: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning; Abstract: Technical and historical analysis of Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter aircraft; Published:October, 1992; Updated: 1999, 2010.www.ausairpower.net
The Amazing Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Best Plane of WW2?
With its radical yet impressive design, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning was a graceful fighter aircraft that epitomized a new level of craftsmanship inwww.warhistoryonline.com
17 Things You Never Knew About The P-38 Lightning
It was controversial, intimidating, and set countless records in WWII. Check out these 17 little known facts about the P-38 Lightning.www.boldmethod.com
P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?
If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to...ww2aircraft.net
Aviation Personnel Fatalities in World War II
Related Resources: US Navy Personnel in World War II: Service and Casualty Statistics World War II Casualtieswww.history.navy.mil
Did the P-51 Mustang Defeat the Luftwaffe? | R-bloggers
14 October 1943 - 291 US Army Air Force (USAAF) heavy bombers took off from England to attack a Ball Bearing factory in the heart of Germany. The goal was to destroy the Nazi war machine’s fighting ability and means of war production. As the bomb...www.r-bloggers.com
P-51 problems...
Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...
I suggest you expand your reading, start here as these might enlighten you a bit, although the way you vehemently deny historical facts I'm skeptical of the outcome.
Amazon product ASIN 1911658875
and
Amazon product ASIN 1472839668
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!
drgondog
Major
How about looking to sources of 8th AF missions, followed by RAF, beginning May 12, 1944. You should acquire Mighty Eighth War Diary by Freeman, Actual knowledge based on facts should help remove the many misconceptions you bring here. Oh, that is the 'official start date of the 'Oil Plan' execution.
drgondog
Major
You should look to JG2 Kommodore Egon Meyer's introduction of company front attacks in November 1942, with Galland modification to stay at altitude to fly through, turn, re-group, fly ahead, turn and attack again.
You should also take note that of all the LW experten, Hartmann was least when discussing tactics to attack a B-17 formation.
Total P-38 VCs in ETO through 1943 ----->29; P-51B ------>8
Total P-38 VCs in ETO from August 1942 through March 1944 ===> 90.5; P-51B/C===> 383
By your logic, the scourge of the LW Day Fighter force was P-38? Care to discuss actual data? Source USAF 85, Dr. Olynyk, Bill Marshall ad Lowell Ford "P-51B Mustang; North American's Bastard Stepchild that saved 8th AF" pg 295.
BTW, through D-Day (8th and 9th AF VCs) for all combat ops:
P-38:170 P-47:911 P-51:1,157 Where do you suppose LW pilot attrition came from?
Nobody is 'denigrating either the P-38 or P-47 importance. The results achieved by Mustangs over P-38 and P-47 were due to combined long(er) range and superior performance vs Bf 109 and Fw 190.
As to your repeated denigration of bomber mafia reputation, particularly with expect to rational thought? Who did you have in mind? Name names and cite facts?
drgondog
Major
Sigh. P-38FG and P51FG few EXACTLY the same mission profile for escort. The numbers of actual LR escorts AVAILABLE (P-38 vs P-51) dictated that a few fighters covered a BD to their targets. They, and actually P-47FGs also, by the nature of the relay system of escort from Landfall to Target, made ANY fighter group prey to a larger concentrated attack by LW.
Neither P-38 nor P-47 nor P-51 equipped fighter groups were 'constrained' to close escort after Doolittle issued 'seek and destroy LW' order. Lack of aggressive leadership at Group CO level was as big a factor as any for individual group scoring. The P-38 had different handicaps of a.) being very easy to identify (for attack or defense), b.) severe diving control issues, c.) extremely numbing cold cockpit and d.) major issues with Intercooler/oil cooler/turbo issues at high altitude. FYI the top P-38 ETO ace was James Morris 20th FG - with 7.33, and he was shot down by a Me 410.
You didn't list Boylon's USAF Study 136 Long Range Escort Fighter. If you want a single best sourced compendium - you should try it.
29 total victory credits through 1943 is hardly 'attrition' of LW rookie OR experienced pilots. And BTW many were twin engine fighters.
I saw what you did there, full marks Sir. However two of Hairog's sources are threads on this forum which you have posted in so I suppose its only fair.
unkated
Airman
The shape is similar to the Fokker G.I Faucheur and the Swedish J-21a.
However, the G.I was slower, with less power (730-830 hp per engine) and there were not enough of them available in 1940, so it stopped making a name for itself.
. The J-21 had a single engine and a pusher prop and was not tested in combat.
Uncle Ted
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
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- Jan 31, 2021
I was going to mention that as a highly useful reference.
It's a pity there isn't a reference of similar detail and thoroughness available for the 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 38,252
- Mar 26, 2007
As a side step. I put up a few racers p-39 p-63 in my ebay threads. Did not do too badly it seems. And indeed not many p-38 i can find racing. A bunch made it as executive fun planes it seems.Apples and oranges - first, there were plenty of P-51s to go around when the races at Reno started in the 60s, many more than P-38s. The P-51 will still have the speed advantage but it's also about being able to accelerate out of the chute and hold a course line for 6 laps without cutting a pylon. This is where I believe the P-38 would be at a disadvantage.; I don't think it has "the smash" to take a Mustang on the outside. Then consider you're running a twin, lots of work to keep it competitive. Hell, I'd think I'd take a P-39 or P-63 over a P-38 to run at Reno!!!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The best I think a P-38 did in a major pylon race was the 1946 Thompson Trophy where one took 2nd place behind a highly modified P-39 flown by Tex Johnson (Tony LeVier was flying the P-38)
drgondog
Major
Hairog - the reason people ask questions about sources is to validate a.) that what you said was backed up the opinions/facts presented by sources. Your list below failed to lead anyone to the salient fact you wish to validate. There is a huge gulf between Doctoral Thesis and simply being accepted as a rational presenter of opinions based on facts - but so far you haven't met the low bar standard;
A clue - Warren Bodie is a reliable source for both P-38 and P-47 but he simply falls short when P-51's creep into his discussions (or the P-38K
For Really important observation by Kelly Johnson regarding Strengths and Weaknesses of P-38, please turn to pg 257 of The Lockheed P-38. Recognize that when Johnson cites in Good column, Boosted Ailerons and Compressibility Control Flap, he is referring to two vital features which were not introduced until after all P-38J's were re-assigned to MTO and 9th AF in ETO - September/October 1944... four years after first crash due to compressibility. Then look to the 15 Ba Points to see if any of the postings here make sense to you.
I don't know what point you were making about virtues of P-38 in ETO with the above 'playlist' but you won't find much in Caldwell's JG 26 or Hall's 1000 Destroyed or Hess' 56th FG or Carl Spaatz Master of Airpower - but on the latter point Davis' Carl A Spaatz - and the Air War in Europe is far better researched and foot noted. Perhaps you should get a copy and seek expert opinions regarding the AAF best fighter, pg 64, 316 good places to start.
Using same reference, note comment on pg 312 that "half the losses (ETO) were due to engine malfunctions" ref 113 (Freemans Mighty Eighth War Diary pp 183, 297; Kelsey's Dragon Teeth pp 134-135. I would also draw your attention to pretty good Combat Radius charts on pp-362-363.
Care to extract facts that you believe support Any thesis you have presented? Looks like something you tossed to the peasants.
Finally a reference of significance. You might have quoted the decision by Gen Barney Giles in summer 1943 that the Mustang was to be the preferred fighter in ETO pp 137-138 and the discussions on Spaatz/Leigh-Mallory and Arnold-Portal spats to gain control of the P-51B for ETO/8th AF.
Perhaps unfair to point out that Bodie was obsessed with explaining that dummies like Spaatz, Arnold, Doolittle favored the P-51B - despite its 'newness' in operations - when any moron could see that the P-38s was receiving a bum rap. To that point, on this forum I responded to an article that Cory Jordan (Widewing) wrote that you cited below. It covers most of the salient points:
P-51 problems...
Interesting reading...I ´ve found it while browsing on net... The Merlin P-51 had a lot of teething problems, but, for some reason, they are largely overlooked. It had problems with the canopy frosting over, with jamming guns, with the engine cooling system and the engine itself--and with...
"You suppose he (CC Jordan) didn't like the Mustang? as much as the P-38? LoL. Too many things to comment on within one reply.
As with any persons' perspective about the dastardly Mustang there is a kernel of truth but this narrative is riddled with exaggerations.
First, when the 51B-1 came to ETO in November, 1944 it was the first production model and it did have issues. Don Blakeslee led the first Pioneer Mustang combat mission and did make that comment on Dec 1, 1943. However, He was the same guy that begged Kepner to give him the Mustangs that the 355th FG had just received, so that he could lead the 4th on the first Berlin missions. When Kepner pointed out that his 4th was not yet checked out in them, Blakeslee promised they would qualify on the way to Berlin.. which is kind of what they did, having flown their first two missions before that with most pilots having less than 1 hour in the 51.
Secondly, in all the 8th AF transitions (i.e 4th, 355th) from P-47 to P-51 the ground crews were working double duty keeping the 47s operational while learning the 51. Not so, the P-47 and P-38 Groups (except 4th which converted from Spit) The B-1's were experiencing all the problems named from radio interferences with mags, to heating issues in cockpit to gun jams and had an occasional tail and wing lost, wheel drops in high G pullout and even faulty heat treatment of engine bolts. This was a real problem for about 60 days.
On the other side, the 4th scored more in two weeks of missions with the P-51 in March than they scored in December, January and February in P-47s.
Contrast that to P-38 effectiveness, and the 4th scored more in the first two weeks of March than all the P-38 scores in the 20th AND 55th period to date!
The abort rate was slightly higher for the Mustangs in first three months of ETO Ops than either the P-38s or P-47s. One reason is they were flying six-seven hours instead of 2-4 hour mission. The 8th AF was sorting out the new P-47C which had a host of gestation problems in April-July 1943 and the P-38 was a nightmare!
To the structural issues. Problem number one. USAAF dive maneuver tactics of dive with rudder and aileron use for evasion put lateral loads on the Mustang w/Merlin that was not accounted for in the tail design from original spec for XP-51/Allison. Beefed up horizontal stabilizer and main spar on the rudder, add reverse rudder Boost tab - problem solved... but still an 8g design/12 G ultimate at 8000 pound GW - over stress that and you are still dead -as with every other fighter..
Wheel uplock failure on High G pullout - leading to ripping off wing with huge drag loads in pull out. Re-design Wheel lock uplock kit - problem solved.
Cg problems with full 85 gallon fuse tank. Change SOP to burn 25 gallons down to 60 gallons before switching to external wing tanks. Problem Solved.
The P-51 gives excellent warning to a stall, but not a lengthy one, when running out of airspeed - or extreme rudder deflection in low speed/High G flight. Learn your airplane and behave accordingly - problem solved.
4 Gun slanted mount guns jamming. Better QC during ammo linking/belting process/install drive motor and improve gun heating - problem Mostly solved but six gun vertical mount solved the problem.
and so on"
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
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- Mar 26, 2007
Hartmann has a very bad rep claims vs archive. Even when considered that in the fight not all can be clear. Erich Hartmann's individual victories researched - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
i,g,
227. 30.05.1944 12:25 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 438 IAP, lt. K. V. Myaskov, baled out
228. 30.05.1944 15:38 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 508 IAP
229. 31.05.1944 19:05 P-39 - overclaim
230. 31.05.1944 19:08 P-39 - overclaim
231. 31.05.1944 19:13 P-39 - overclaim
232. 01.06.1944 12:31 LaGG - overclaim
233. 01.06.1944 12:38 LaGG - overclaim
234. 01.06.1944 15:20 LaGG - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. N. T. Motuzko, MIA
235. 01.06.1944 15:30 LaGG - overclaim
236. 01.06.1944 15:32 P-39 - overclaim
237. 01.06.1944 15:35 P-39 - overclaim
238. 02.06.1944 18:10 P-39 - overclaim
239. 02.06.1944 18:15 P-39 - overclaim
240. 03.06.1944 14:30 P-39 - overclaim
241. 03.06.1944 14:33 P-39 - overclaim
242. 03.06.1944 15:00 LaGG - overclaim
243. 03.06.1944 17:17 LaGG - overclaim
244. 04.06.1944 16:10 P-39 - overclaim
245. 04.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim
246. 04.06.1944 18:13 P-39 - overclaim
247. 04.06.1944 18:23 P-39 - overclaim
248. 04.06.1944 18:53 P-39 - possible, damaged - P-39 of 16 GIAP, m. lt. G. G. Statsenko, slightly injured
249. 04.06.1944 19:15 P-39 - overclaim
250. 04.06.1944 19:18 P-39 - overclaim
251. 05.06.1944 14:12 P-39 - P-39 of 100 GIAP, m. lt. N. I. Zaytsev, survived (?)
252. 05.06.1944 14:19 P-39 - overclaim
253. 05.06.1944 16:15 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP
254. 05.06.1944 19:07 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP, m. lt. E. A. Karpov, survived
255. 05.06.1944 19:35 P-39 - overclaim
256. 05.06.1944 19:40 P-39 - overclaim
257. 06.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim
258. 06.06.1944 16:30 LaGG - overclaim
259. 06.06.1944 20:15 P-39 - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. A. I. Sopin, survived
260. 06.06.1944 20:25 P-39 - overclaim
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
There have been several researchers who have looked into Hartmann's claims and depending who you speak to it can be as high as 45% accurate! People take offense to this as we've been somewhat programed to believe that Hartmann was the GOAT, but as we are now able to more accurately verify combat records Hartmann may not be the highest scoring fighter pilot of all time, like it or not.
Is it just me or is there a lot of P-39 claims…
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And not a single P-38 in the lot...
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
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I'm old enough to remember when being the goat was a bad thing . . .
I guess capitalization really does matter! GOAT vs. goat.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
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- Mar 26, 2007
He was not. The thought that the german claiming systeem was airtight has been proven wrong many times. Plse read the link. It is no wonder Hartmann was not popular during ww2 and after 45 in his new job. There is a reason he was not made a general post war i think.
