cheddar cheese
Major General
You seem to doubt everything...especially if it's superior to the Lancaster...
How good was Japanese aviation?
- Thread starter Chiron
- Start date
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cheddar cheese
Major General
Yep, look at the armament, 4 x 20mm, not exactly bristling with guns is it 
A
Anonymous
Guest
Japanese plane designs were innovative and often of an equivalent quality to that of the other nations of WWII. The KI-84 certianly was a top of the line fighter in 1945. Japanese gun technology was decent as well, though... confused.
That being said, their engine technology was not up to their airframe designs. In this respect, they were pretty much "copy cats". Most (if not all) of their radial engines were derived from the Wright Cyclone engines which they licenced for production and purchased production equipment for prior to the war. Materials technology was also poor. In the end, they were never able to break the 2000 HP barrier nor were they able to produce an effective high-altitude interceptor engine.
Fighters are built around their engines!
=S=
Lunatic
That being said, their engine technology was not up to their airframe designs. In this respect, they were pretty much "copy cats". Most (if not all) of their radial engines were derived from the Wright Cyclone engines which they licenced for production and purchased production equipment for prior to the war. Materials technology was also poor. In the end, they were never able to break the 2000 HP barrier nor were they able to produce an effective high-altitude interceptor engine.
Fighters are built around their engines!
=S=
Lunatic
evangilder
"Shooter"
They did do some copy work, the Sakae is such a knock off of the R-1830, you can interchange parts between them. But the Japanese did have a license to build them before the war. They did manage to get more horsepower out of the 1830 in the Sakae.
A
Anonymous
Guest
evangilder said:
The Nakajima NK1F Sakae 21 on the A6M3 produced 1130 HP at critical altitude using a two stage supercharger, later variants were unreliable but are claimed to have produced as much as 1340 HP (when working). The P&W R-1830-36 (and 65 and 92) produced 1200 HP.
But that comaprison is not really fair. P&W development focused on the R-2800, not the R-1830, when seeking HP beyond 1200. Wright on the otherhand, managed to tweak some 1350 HP out of it's 9 cylinder Wright R-1820-66 Cyclone (as used on the Dauntless).
When the Japanese tried to extract more than about 1500 HP out of their engines, the result was an unreliable engine that was more dangerous to the pilots than even US fighters. Some will say this was because of poor materials and lack of skilled workers, and this is partially true (Japanese fuel systems were notoriously poorly designed) - but produceability is part of any design! It is useless to design something your industry cannot produce.
=S=
Lunatic
evangilder
"Shooter"
I wasn't making any comparisons, I was just stating what the Japanese did with the 1830. I understand by the beginning of the war, the Americans knew that when it comes to horsepower, there's no replacement for displacement. Producability was always a factor with the Zero. They are a big pain in the butt to work on! Just to tighten the cowling back down after it has been repalced is a long and tedious process.
- Thread starter
- #28
It seems like some people tend to catogorize Japanese/Asians as a distinct people from other developed nations. In other words, all industrialized nations shared technology and science; British and American shared a lots in aviation, such as the P-51. Whereas "copy" is usually a word to describe how non-Western nations caught up or surpassed in some tehnological fields, "innovation" is the words for any Western state that achieved in particular technological progress, even it initially "borrowed"/"acquired" the fundamentals from major Western powers.
From certaiin perspectives, Japan was isolated from international organizations even after it demonstrated its military power after defeating Russia in Russo-Japanese war, Western industrialized nations viewed Japan as non-white state. The racial descrimination and unequal treatment were some of attributions to the rise of militarism and of colonialism in Japan in post 1930s.
This kind of racial analysis upon one state's achievement still going on in modern time. I recalled when Japan began to export cars (such as early Honda and Toyota) to Europe and to US; the reaction from Euroepans were unlike what people in WWII viewed Japanese products: copy, poor disigned and unsophisticated.
In 1980s, most acedemics believed Japan would take over USA as the sole economic power on earth; 8 out of 10 world largest banks were Japanese. And the real estate of Japanese Imperial palace was as expensive as the whole real estate of whole California.
Today, China was kind of repeating what Japan did in last two decades, altough Economists described its as "2nd Industrialization". Chinese produce cheap stuffs; toys, clothings, tvs...And there are numerious copies in China too. Its military technology are still two decades away in comparison with US, but if it took Japan 50 years to catch up US in ecnomy, with ample natural and human resources, China will probably surpass American in some technological fields within less 2 decades (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, are all technological Chinese states).
From certaiin perspectives, Japan was isolated from international organizations even after it demonstrated its military power after defeating Russia in Russo-Japanese war, Western industrialized nations viewed Japan as non-white state. The racial descrimination and unequal treatment were some of attributions to the rise of militarism and of colonialism in Japan in post 1930s.
This kind of racial analysis upon one state's achievement still going on in modern time. I recalled when Japan began to export cars (such as early Honda and Toyota) to Europe and to US; the reaction from Euroepans were unlike what people in WWII viewed Japanese products: copy, poor disigned and unsophisticated.
In 1980s, most acedemics believed Japan would take over USA as the sole economic power on earth; 8 out of 10 world largest banks were Japanese. And the real estate of Japanese Imperial palace was as expensive as the whole real estate of whole California.
Today, China was kind of repeating what Japan did in last two decades, altough Economists described its as "2nd Industrialization". Chinese produce cheap stuffs; toys, clothings, tvs...And there are numerious copies in China too. Its military technology are still two decades away in comparison with US, but if it took Japan 50 years to catch up US in ecnomy, with ample natural and human resources, China will probably surpass American in some technological fields within less 2 decades (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, are all technological Chinese states).
A
Anonymous
Guest
No Chiron,
I was simply pointing out that while Japanese aeroengineering design was quite advanced, their engine design was not. The did indeed "copy" western designs, and in fact even used imported machine tooling to build them. What it comes down to is that their engineers were as advanced as anyone elses, but their culture and economy was not. As a result, they more than any other major nation in WWII lacked the industrial base capablity to produce complex engines and other first rate designs.
As for the modern world, especially w.r.t. china, what they cannot build themselves they can import. This accelerates their ability to develop the capacity to produce these things themselves. In another decade and a half or so, they will have "caught up", which will create a very dangerous world for all of us.
=S=
Lunatic
I was simply pointing out that while Japanese aeroengineering design was quite advanced, their engine design was not. The did indeed "copy" western designs, and in fact even used imported machine tooling to build them. What it comes down to is that their engineers were as advanced as anyone elses, but their culture and economy was not. As a result, they more than any other major nation in WWII lacked the industrial base capablity to produce complex engines and other first rate designs.
As for the modern world, especially w.r.t. china, what they cannot build themselves they can import. This accelerates their ability to develop the capacity to produce these things themselves. In another decade and a half or so, they will have "caught up", which will create a very dangerous world for all of us.
=S=
Lunatic
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
This I extracted from WW2 aces website. Is an extract of a serie of relates by Satoru Anabuki japanese ace with 51 kills.
If this is an actual event or not I will let to your opinion.
Anabuki's greatest deed happened on October 8 1943, when at 12:10 hs four Hayabusas (one of them flown by Sgt Anabuki) taxied in Mingaladon airstrip to take off and intercepte several B-24s which were raiding against a Japanese convoy in Rangoon harbour. However, a fouled spark plug caused that Anabuki should delay his take off during 5 minutes. When he finally could scramble, was unable to find his three buddies and a second flight of four Ki-43s (which were also tasked to intercepte the bombers) because of the haze. Suddenly, when he got out of the hazy area, saw his target: 11 B-24s together with two escorting P-38s, which apparently did not notice him.
Anabuki realized that -due to the hazy weather- none of his comrades had found the enemy and that he was completely alone. But Anabuki also noticed that he was in a perfect attack position against both the enemy fighters and bombers, and the surprise factor was at his side. Being a hunter by nature, Anabuki decided to take that chance despite the odds were against him.
So, Anabuki choose one of the unaware Lightnings, put it in the gunsight of his Ki-43 Hayabusa and badly shot it up (Anabuki saw the incendaries exploding around the P-38's cockpit), breaking his attack and diving only when he almost collide the American plane. As he turned to repeat his attack, saw the P-38 trying a loop while leaving a trail of black smoke. Suddenly the P-38 stalled and went downwards, crashing near Yangon river. Then Anabuki jumped the P-38 leader, but his adversary was an experienced pilot because it immediatelly rolled and steeply dove. Knowing that his Ki-43 Hayabusa was excellent in dogfighting and could out-turn the P-38, but could not compete with the Lightning in dive and climb rates, Anabuki did not even try to follow the American plane, instead he concentrated in the bombers.
"All I could see was the enemy. I'm diving straight down towards the dark jungle. Life or death didn't matter then. If the gods still need me they wouldn't let me die. I see an image of my mother's face. I think I heard her yelling `Go, Satoru,go!`. I think of what a strong woman my mother is. I think to myself I must be as strong. Distance closes further. 300, 200, I see my bullets get sucked into the gigantic B-24. Getting closer. 150, 100. I start firing my final burst.
The enemy's defensive fire is fierce. Their formation is trailing a lot of gun smoke, raining bullets in successive bursts, but I know as long as I'm at this angle, they can't hit me. My target starts smoking from the wing root. Even as I'm firing, the white smoke is getting bigger and bigger. I'm near collision and I break off to the left and to the rear of the enemy, diving vertically. Fifty some enemy machine guns are firing at me, but not a single bullet hit me as I speeded away out of their range. "
When Anabuki prepared himself for a second pass against the badly hit B-24, saw that it slipped at one side, the crew bailed out and the bomber began to spin. So, in few minutes he added one P-38 and one B-24 to his killboard.
But when he was ready to attack the bombers for the second time, suddenly saw tracers passing very close to his port wing. Anabuki sharply broke to starboard, avoiding the burst, but a second one struck his plane, being the Japanese pilot badly wounded in his left hand. Anabuki realised that the P-38 leader which had previously escaped was back, and it was willing to take him out. Despite the intense pain, Anabuki performed a series of the sharp turns, exploiting the superior turn capability of the Ki-43 Hayabusa and forcing the American pilot to gave up. When the P-38 pilot did so, Anabuki rolled his plane and reversed towards the Lightning. At point-blank range (about 30 mts) the Japanese ace fired and black smoke emerged from the P-38, together with oil which splattered over the windshield of the Ki-43 and temporarily blinded Anabuki. When he recover the sight, the P-38 was diving away again, this time definitively.
The history continue. But to make not the post too long conclude with satoru ramming ( and bagging) another B-24 and bailing out.
If this is an actual event or not I will let to your opinion.
Anabuki's greatest deed happened on October 8 1943, when at 12:10 hs four Hayabusas (one of them flown by Sgt Anabuki) taxied in Mingaladon airstrip to take off and intercepte several B-24s which were raiding against a Japanese convoy in Rangoon harbour. However, a fouled spark plug caused that Anabuki should delay his take off during 5 minutes. When he finally could scramble, was unable to find his three buddies and a second flight of four Ki-43s (which were also tasked to intercepte the bombers) because of the haze. Suddenly, when he got out of the hazy area, saw his target: 11 B-24s together with two escorting P-38s, which apparently did not notice him.
Anabuki realized that -due to the hazy weather- none of his comrades had found the enemy and that he was completely alone. But Anabuki also noticed that he was in a perfect attack position against both the enemy fighters and bombers, and the surprise factor was at his side. Being a hunter by nature, Anabuki decided to take that chance despite the odds were against him.
So, Anabuki choose one of the unaware Lightnings, put it in the gunsight of his Ki-43 Hayabusa and badly shot it up (Anabuki saw the incendaries exploding around the P-38's cockpit), breaking his attack and diving only when he almost collide the American plane. As he turned to repeat his attack, saw the P-38 trying a loop while leaving a trail of black smoke. Suddenly the P-38 stalled and went downwards, crashing near Yangon river. Then Anabuki jumped the P-38 leader, but his adversary was an experienced pilot because it immediatelly rolled and steeply dove. Knowing that his Ki-43 Hayabusa was excellent in dogfighting and could out-turn the P-38, but could not compete with the Lightning in dive and climb rates, Anabuki did not even try to follow the American plane, instead he concentrated in the bombers.
"All I could see was the enemy. I'm diving straight down towards the dark jungle. Life or death didn't matter then. If the gods still need me they wouldn't let me die. I see an image of my mother's face. I think I heard her yelling `Go, Satoru,go!`. I think of what a strong woman my mother is. I think to myself I must be as strong. Distance closes further. 300, 200, I see my bullets get sucked into the gigantic B-24. Getting closer. 150, 100. I start firing my final burst.
The enemy's defensive fire is fierce. Their formation is trailing a lot of gun smoke, raining bullets in successive bursts, but I know as long as I'm at this angle, they can't hit me. My target starts smoking from the wing root. Even as I'm firing, the white smoke is getting bigger and bigger. I'm near collision and I break off to the left and to the rear of the enemy, diving vertically. Fifty some enemy machine guns are firing at me, but not a single bullet hit me as I speeded away out of their range. "
When Anabuki prepared himself for a second pass against the badly hit B-24, saw that it slipped at one side, the crew bailed out and the bomber began to spin. So, in few minutes he added one P-38 and one B-24 to his killboard.
But when he was ready to attack the bombers for the second time, suddenly saw tracers passing very close to his port wing. Anabuki sharply broke to starboard, avoiding the burst, but a second one struck his plane, being the Japanese pilot badly wounded in his left hand. Anabuki realised that the P-38 leader which had previously escaped was back, and it was willing to take him out. Despite the intense pain, Anabuki performed a series of the sharp turns, exploiting the superior turn capability of the Ki-43 Hayabusa and forcing the American pilot to gave up. When the P-38 pilot did so, Anabuki rolled his plane and reversed towards the Lightning. At point-blank range (about 30 mts) the Japanese ace fired and black smoke emerged from the P-38, together with oil which splattered over the windshield of the Ki-43 and temporarily blinded Anabuki. When he recover the sight, the P-38 was diving away again, this time definitively.
The history continue. But to make not the post too long conclude with satoru ramming ( and bagging) another B-24 and bailing out.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I find it at best dubious. The Ki-43-I Hayabusa was, at best, armed with one Ho-103 12.7mm with ~300 rounds, and one 7.7mm mg with ~500 rounds. Given the description, there just doesn't seem to be enough ammo to support it. B-24's could generally take a lot of 12.7 mm hits, and a tremendous number of 7.7mm hits.
I'd have to see confirmation of the losses on that date to believe it. The Japanese were notorious for false kill claims.
And just what angle would he be "safe" from the B-24 return fire? There isn't one!
=S=
Lunatic
I'd have to see confirmation of the losses on that date to believe it. The Japanese were notorious for false kill claims.
And just what angle would he be "safe" from the B-24 return fire? There isn't one!
=S=
Lunatic
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Guncam of unknow japanese hidroplane under attack, maybe by F4U.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think it's a hellcat, judging from the other plane you can see half way through the film. The wings are not gulled enough to be a Corsair.
A
Anonymous
Guest
LOL - hardly.
Look at the data for the Ki-84. It was good, but it was not that good.
And the US post-war tests involved a Frank with a US re-designed fuel delivery system running hi-octane fuel the Japanese did not have. Even so it was slower than the US fighters you've mentioned.
BTW: the F4U-4 made 20,000 feet in under 5 minutes - the Frank could not come close to this climb rate.
=S=
Lunatic
Look at the data for the Ki-84. It was good, but it was not that good.
And the US post-war tests involved a Frank with a US re-designed fuel delivery system running hi-octane fuel the Japanese did not have. Even so it was slower than the US fighters you've mentioned.
BTW: the F4U-4 made 20,000 feet in under 5 minutes - the Frank could not come close to this climb rate.
=S=
Lunatic
cheddar cheese
Major General
But being Japanese it wasnt exactly hard to take out.
Chocks away!
Senior Airman
Really? I would like to learn more about thatChiron said:
Chocks away!
Senior Airman
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
Doesn't look bad in flight, nice pic
