How many US Aircraft Carriers were enough?

[Conslaw]

Ignoring for the moment the pre-war aircraft carriers, the US Navy built and planned to build an astounding number of aircraft carriers during World War II. The Navy ordered 36 Essex-class fleet carriers, and of that 24 were built. They ordered 9 Independence-class light carriers, all of which were built, they ordered 6 Midway-class "battle carriers", and 3 were built (seeing service after the war.) (I'll give them credit, they actually cancelled the other three during the war.) The Navy put in service over 100 escort carriers of various types. The Navy ordered 35 Commencement Bay-class super escort carriers. Of these, 19 were put into service and 19 were scrapped before completion.

My question is this: How did the Navy figure that this many aircraft carriers were necessary, did they crunch the numbers on the resources that would be necessary to build the carriers, crew the carriers, provide the aircraft, fuel, bombs, etc? The training? The escorts, bases, mobile replenishment, etc.? If anybody has a source for the numbers underlying the Navy's planning, I'd love to see it.

 

[The Basket]

I did remember reading somewhere that more carriers were built as attrition replacement.

 

[pbehn]

I think what happened in the war up to Pearl Harbor, like the raid on Taranto, the effect of escort carriers plus losses seen of carriers and the Bismarck, then the attack on PH itself meant that at the start the requirement was just to build as many as possible as quickly as possible.

 

[michaelmaltby]

It's a great question but not just to carriers - how did they crunch the numbers for the USAAF ... air armies such as the 8th ... ?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Interesting question and thread. I have little to offer, but will read the thread hoping to pick up good sources. I wouldn't be surprised if the build-programs got put on a full-throttle footing for the first two years of the war, and then scaled back once we had results to judge the estimated needs better.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's a great question but not just to carriers - how did they crunch the numbers for the USAAF ... air armies such as the 8th ... ?

Or destroyers? Seemed for a while we were just spamming DDs and DEs, as well as Liberty Ships.

 

[Conslaw]

It's a great question but not just to carriers - how did they crunch the numbers for the USAAF ... air armies such as the 8th ... ?

I agree.

 

[pbehn]

I agree.

Battleships also had a big crew and lots of logistics to solve, I suppose in the time they were constructing the additional carries they had time to figure out how to keep them supplied.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Battleships also had a big crew and lots of logistics to solve, I suppose in the time they were constructing the additional carries they had time to figure out how to keep them supplied.

Put a thousand bombers on an island, hoping to fly missions consisting of 400 ships per raid, and you're up into that territory as well: ground-maintenance, ordnance folks, paymasters, clerks, cooks, firemen, and so on. That's ignoring the shipping required to bring the ammunition, the staffing for their naval escorts, etc, as those expenses get amortized over a broad range of cargoes -- but you get the idea.

I think all of the logistics in such a vast war are stunning in their scope, and I marvel at those numbers.

 

[pbehn]

Put a thousand bombers on an island, hoping to fly missions consisting of 400 ships per raid, and you're up into that territory as well: ground-maintenance, ordnance folks, paymasters, clerks, cooks, firemen, and so on. That's ignoring the shipping required to bring the ammunition, the staffing for the naval escorts, etc, as their expense gets amortized over a broad range of cargoes -- but you get the idea.

I think all of the logistics in such a vast war are stunning in their scope, and I marvel at those numbers.

I agree, I remember reading in the first book I read about anything military, the Graf Spee had used so much ammunition in an engagement with a cruiser and two light cruisers that it was a major issue for the captain risking a repeat. Even if his ship was undamaged Langsdorf would certainly have run out of ammunition trying to get back home.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I agree, I remember reading in the first book I read about anything military, the Graf Spee had used so much ammunition in an engagement with a cruiser and two light cruisers that it was a major issue for the captain risking a repeat. Even if his ship was undamaged Langsdorf would certainly have run out of ammunition trying to get back home.

Right. Think for a moment too about the millions of men on the Eastern Front who needed to be fed, armed, fueled, and replaced as they died ... and what it takes to accomplish that. It's mind-boggling to me.

 

[Conslaw]

I agree, I remember reading in the first book I read about anything military, the Graf Spee had used so much ammunition in an engagement with a cruiser and two light cruisers that it was a major issue for the captain risking a repeat. Even if his ship was undamaged Langsdorf would certainly have run out of ammunition trying to get back home.

I think it must have unnerved Langsdorf that the British cruisers could shadow the Graf Spee night and day via radar for thousands of miles, keeping out of effective gunnery range the whole time. It was a long way from Uruguay to Germany. Scuttling Graf Spee was like a chessmaster laying down his king early in the game, when he can project out a certain victory by the opponent.

 

[Conslaw]

Going back to the carriers though. Sure you plan for attrition, but how much do you plan for? On the Essex-Class carriers, attrition was not bad, probably less than they expected, until the Kamikazes off of Okinawa. I can't remember where I read it, but for a short time, more ships were being knocked out than were being built.

 

[pbehn]

I think it must have unnerved Langsdorf that the British cruisers could shadow the Graf Spee night and day via radar for thousands of miles, keeping out of effective gunnery range the whole time. It was a long way from Uruguay to Germany. Scuttling Graf Spee was like a chessmaster laying down his king early in the game, when he can project out a certain victory by the opponent.

He was also led to believe that that there was a large force outside (force H). He saved 61 POWs and his crew taking his own life for the honour of his navy. The only German my father said he had respect for.

 

[GrauGeist]

Going back to the carriers though. Sure you plan for attrition, but how much do you plan for? On the Essex-Class carriers, attrition was not bad, probably less than they expected, until the Kamikazes off of Okinawa. I can't remember where I read it, but for a short time, more ships were being knocked out than were being built.

Of the 12 USN carriers lost during the war, only four were fleet carriers.

All four fleet carriers (Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet and Wasp) were lost in 1942 - the Essex class carriers were already in the works to replace the aging fleet carriers built in the 1920's.

 

[pbehn]

I found this, which is a good read. Liberty Ship Production Data

 

[nuuumannn]

Scuttling Graf Spee was like a chessmaster laying down his king early in the game, when he can project out a certain victory by the opponent.

True, and Langsdorff had a masterful team ranged against him, Harwood was a clever and astute opponent who outwitted him by dividing his ships, not to mention Millington-Drake ashore in Montevideo who masterminded the intelligence strokes of convincing the Uruguayans to keep the ship in port by delaying the departure of the Tacoma and persuading Langsdorff the British were on their way. Millington-Drake's office was on the fourteenth floor of this tower block from where he watched the ship burn off the coast.

River Plate 19

The Admiral Graf Spee's rangefinder and anchor at the Port of Montevideo.

River Plate 30

He saved 61 POWs and his crew taking his own life for the honour of his navy.

He treated them well too, from what I have read...

River Plate 63

Sorry, slight thread drift...

 

[The Basket]

Question about the carriers goes to one Ernest King.

So if you want to argue with him then be my guest.

Graf Spee was never in a trillion years going to make it back to Germany. It wasn't in a fit state anyway.

So you either scuttle, sail to Buenos Aires and intern or one way ticket to Valhalla.

Langsdorff was on a fools errand and paid the price.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm wondering if there was a sort of formula. In addition to escort type ships planned for escort duty: for every carrier, 2 CA's, 4CL's, 8 destroyers are needed or something like that.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm wondering if there was a sort of formula. In addition to escort type ships planned for escort duty: for every carrier, 2 CA's, 4CL's, 8 destroyers are needed or something like that.

I'm certain there was, though I don't know the exact numbers involved. No navy is going to send out a CV without having some heavy gunfire support nearby, even if only in the form of CAs.