How safe is your city?

syscom3 said:

We discussed that in class (under reporting in general). The issue of under reporting crime doesnt change the overall statistics that much (when comparing crime between cities of similar rates). Most under reported crime is of low value property. And think of this; if you dont report a mugging or purse snatching, you do report your credit card's as being stolen, thus it does end up as being in one of many statistics that gets reported.

Its near impossible to not report murders and serious assaults where hospitalization is required. And for the serious crimes that are never reported, they're few enough as to not change the statistics is any meaningfull way. Plus, since most unreported crimes are in high crime rate cities, all it does it make those city rankings worse than what they are.

Again, noone is providing evidence that underreporting of crime changes the rankings. Youre making a conclusion this underreporting is selective in some cities and not others, and its high enough in the most serious catagories as to skew the results.

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Bottom line there is under reporting so you cannot fully validate what you're saying - true the statistics shown paint a picture of the situation and no one is disputing the rankings per say - its just in reality, based on personal experience in some of the cites listed things are better (or worse) than actually shown in the reports and the second document I posted from the DOJ shows that....

Matt308 said:

Well that was bloody disappointing.

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Come on Matt.

syscom3 said:

So tell me what college level courses you have taken in statistics and also in criminal justice?

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I'm not pulling out my college transcript - it's packed up and it's pointless. I have taken about 3 stat classes and a couple sociology classes, but no explicit CJ classes - doesn't appeal to me. But this doesn't mean I'm in a much better position to argue stats or sociology - which is closely tied to cj - than someone who has not. I also have a degree in poly sci - does that mean nobody here can argue w/ me about politics - of course not!

Does being a qualified Military Policeman and Military Police Dog Handler qualify?

Civil and Military Law.

Oh and 80 % is the pass mark to be achieved on any test, over 12 months you will spend 6 months on courses, with a one hour test every week and a 3 hour test every third. While at base you will complete a remote learning paper every week, while doing shift work, in your own time.

However to get accepted into the Dog Unit your average had better be over 90%.

18 months training all up including the Dog training.

Stick your degree, THAT is training.

Or am I still being thick?

Henk said:

Come on Matt.

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Well it was disappointing, Henk. Syscom didn't insult anyone (everyone) in his post.

Listen you're not in the pool.

And by the way to add my two cents. I'll bounce my creds with anyone. Anytime.

Then do not complain if the sh*t hits the fan.

Sadly I see this one ending ugly.....


Syscom just stop talking on this thread and it will end.

FLYBOYJ said:

Bottom line there is under reporting so you cannot fully validate what you're saying - true the statistics shown paint a picture of the situation and no one is disputing the rankings per say - its just in reality, based on personal experience in some of the cites listed things are better (or worse) than actually shown in the reports and the second document I posted from the DOJ shows that....

Click to expand...

The under reporting does not effect the bottom line. It is nonsense that under reporting of cities that are quite safe are all of a sudden going to jump downward significantly. Its impossible to under report enough murders, assaults and large dollar property crimes to significantly change the results.

And personal experience is what happened at a particular point in time. . Just because you got robbed at gun point several years ago doesnt automatically mean lots of others did too (a few cities excepted). And unless you tell me you are in that localities police dept and had access to all the police reports, then you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

mkloby said:

I'm not pulling out my college transcript - it's packed up and it's pointless. I have taken about 3 stat classes and a couple sociology classes, but no explicit CJ classes - doesn't appeal to me. But this doesn't mean I'm in a much better position to argue stats or sociology - which is closely tied to cj - than someone who has not. I also have a degree in poly sci - does that mean nobody here can argue w/ me about politics - of course not!

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OK, its established you didnt have any college level courses dealing with criminal justice.

Does being a qualified Military Policeman and Military Police Dog Handler qualify?

Click to expand...

Military police is as different to civilian police as night and day. And vice versa.

Civil and Military Law.

Oh and 80 % is the pass mark to be achieved on any test, over 12 months you will spend 6 months on courses, with a one hour test every week and a 3 hour test every third. While at base you will complete a remote learning paper every week, while doing shift work, in your own time.

Click to expand...

Good for you. You may know the law in NZ. I promise not to argue about crime stats in NZ with you. But you dont know about the criminal justice system in the US

However to get accepted into the Dog Unit your average had better be over 90%.

18 months training all up including the Dog training.

Stick your degree, THAT is training.

Click to expand...

Higher education is the ticket to success.

I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.

I am a happily married heterosexual.

Military police is as different to civilian police as night and day. And vice versa.

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Incorrect, you must know all Civil Laws as well as the Manual of Armed Forces Law.

So you need to learn MORE than a standard cop.

But you dont know about the criminal justice system in the US

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And you know this bald statement is true because of what?

syscom3 said:

So tell me what college level courses you have taken in statistics and also in criminal justice?

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So since when does someone who has taken courses in statistics and criminal justice become more intelligent than someone who has not.

You really do need to get out more and get a life....

I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.

I am a happily married heterosexual.

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I am not interested in your sex life

k9kiwi said:

I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.

I am a happily married heterosexual.

Click to expand...

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

So since when does someone who has taken courses in statistics and criminal justice become more intelligent than someone who has not.

You really do need to get out more and get a life....

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These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.

You do learn quite a lot.

I should tell you about the field trip I took last month to the Los Angeles Coroners Office to see what they do down in the basement.

Their motto is "our day starts when yours ends"

And personal experience is what happened at a particular point in time. . Just because you got robbed at gun point several years ago doesnt automatically mean lots of others did too (a few cities excepted). And unless you tell me you are in that localities police dept and had access to all the police reports, then you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

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I've shown earlier that there are shootings and other crimes that you claimed don't exist in OC - bottom line in So Cal you could live in a "crimeless" neighborhood and a few miles away bloods and crips (or in OC Asian and Mexican gangs) could be blasting away at each other as well as innocents in the local area - there are few if any other places in the US that has that situation - bottom line So Cal, including OC isn't as safe as the statistics show, here again is that 2005 freway shooting recap - not even whent he freeway snipers (Malvo) was on the loose does it match So Cal on a business as usual basis. And once again, here's the NBC report on 2005 freeway shootings, there were a few in OC

nbc4.tv - Slideshow

BTW I wan't robbed - I put my 9mm to the dipshits head - I think he's still running down Harbor Blvd.

syscom3 said:

Higher education is the ticket to success.

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Thats funny. A buddy of mine who has no college degree is making about 200,000 dollars a year more than me right now.

Wow that must be a fluke!

That is about the most stupid thing I have ever heard come out of your pie hole! I know many many people who are pilots and aircraft technicians that have no college degree and they are loads more successful and have done more with there life than you ever will.

I repeat myself one more time. Get off your high horse. You allready have your one official warning that you will recieve.

Oh and syscom dont ignore me this time!

syscom3 said:

These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.

You do learn quite a lot.

I should tell you about the field trip I took last month to the Los Angeles Coroners Office to see what they do down in the basement.

Their motto is "our day starts when yours ends"

Click to expand...

And you point being. So I did not take courses in statistics but rather physics, aviation law, and so forth. So that makes me less smart than you? These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.

Does that sound familiar syscom?

You do learn quite a lot.

Oh and as for the coronors office, dont bother. Does not interest me. I guess since I am not interested in statistics, coronor offices and crime, I am not successful as you are syscom. Huh is that the case, is that true?

Lets see problems with crime reporting that I have found. These are instances where crime reports were found to be 15 to 20 percent lower than what they really were.

Ex-Commish Raised Questions During Tenure
Kevin Clark Points To Audit Into Crime Reporting

BALTIMORE -- Baltimore's previous police commissioner told the WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team in an exclusive interview that City Hall put the brakes on a deeper examination of the city's crime numbers.

The 11 News I-Team uncovered the former commissioner's crime audit that revealed problems in crime reporting at the time.

In an interview in New York, former Baltimore City Police Commissioner Kevin Clark detailed, for the first time, what he called the effort to suppress problems with the city's crime reporting. The problems turned up during Clark's tenure.

Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley abruptly fired Clark in November 2004. The mayor claimed too much distraction had been caused by a domestic abuse investigation into Clark. That information was released after WBAL-TV and The Baltimore Sun sued the city.

WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team lead investigative reporter Jayne Miller asked Clark: "When you were (commissioner), did you have questions?"

"Absolutely. I had questions almost from when I was first appointed to the position as to just how accurate the data was and reliable," Clark said.

Mayor Touts Crime Reduction; Clark Questions Numbers

The mayor appointed Clark as commissioner in early 2003. By that time, the mayor had trumpeted reports of Baltimore leading the nation in violent crime reduction by 26 percent since his taking office in late 1999.

Mayor Touts Crime Reduction; Clark Questions Numbers

The mayor appointed Clark as commissioner in early 2003. By that time, the mayor had trumpeted reports of Baltimore leading the nation in violent crime reduction by 26 percent since his taking office in late 1999.

But Clark said the city's 911 calls seemed to conflict with that reduction. In 2001 and 2002, according to a report by a consultant to the police department, the number of 911 calls police responded to wasn't dropping, but climbing by 5 percent over the year 2000.

Shortly after taking over as commissioner, Clark sought an internal audit of the 2002 crime numbers -- the results of which he said raised more questions than answers.

"There were some very significant problems that were identified in that audit, and to say the least, that audit was never published," Clark said. "It didn't get me a lot of popularity amongst the administration, but it was the tip of the iceberg of what I saw were substantial problems in the way that crime was counted in the city."

Clark's audit, now obtained by the 11 News I-Team, examined just two categories of violent crime in 2002: rape and robbery. Auditors discovered problems of underreporting in both categories.

Of 331 rape reports that officers had initially declared "unfounded," auditors reclassified 65 cases -- 20 percent -- as crimes of rape that really occurred.

Of 738 unfounded robbery reports, 109 were reclassified -- 15 percent -- after auditors found they should have been counted as crimes.

Miller reported the audit found other trouble, including a crime reporting system "that allows almost anyone with access to make a change to a crime code and does not provide an audit trail of personnel changing the code."

"The alarm had been sounded that there was a problem with our data," Clark said.

Clark Details City Hall's Response

Clark said, based on the results of the limited audit, he wanted a further review of the 2002 crime numbers of both Part I crimes, the most serious, and the less serious Part II crimes.

"I felt that sampling was too small, it should have been expanded to a number of other Part I crime areas -- aggravated assault should have been looked at, burglary, property crimes -- and the underlying Part II crimes that could elevate up to a Part I; it should have been comprehensive," Clark said.

Clark said he ran into resistance at City Hall with two top mayoral aides.

"I reported it to the mayor. I was brought into a meeting. I sat there with Matt Gallagher (director of operations for CitiStat), Deputy Mayor Michael Enright, and they were very annoyed, they were very unhappy with what had happened," Clark said.

He added, "After the second meeting, I was not invited back. That audit was not going to be published. A reporter had gotten part of the rapes, somebody had gotten information on the rapes, it was published, but that report was suppressed and I was to do nothing else with any crime numbers prior to my arrival."

Miller asked: "When you presented this to the administration, to City Hall, you were instructed not to go any further?"

"Yes," Clark responded.

Miller asked: "Who was it that didn't want any further auditing of the prior years, before you came on board? Who was it that was standing in the way?"

"Deputy Mayor Enright clearly said they weren't going to go any further because the mayor had already been out front and had told everyone nationally that Baltimore was leading the nation in the reduction of violent crime, and I think, at that time, it was something like 26 percent, and if suddenly we were to have an audit that showed the numbers were going to take some type of change, it would kind of leave him out to political scrutiny," Clark said.

Miller asked: "Was the mayor present when those statements were made?"

"No, the mayor was not present. These were separate meetings that were held in the deputy mayor's office," Clark said.

Miller asked: "Did you at any time hear from the mayor to say, 'Kevin, let's go look at the rest of these numbers?'"

"No," Clark responded.

Miller asked: "He was aware of it?"

"Yes," Clark responded.

City Officials Respond

Late Wednesday afternoon, more than 24 hours after the 11 News I-Team first asked for a response from the mayor and city officials, the mayor's press secretary sent a statement, saying "Kevin Clark is not telling the truth. He never raised his concerns while in office."

Miller reported the mayoral representative called Clark "a disgruntled former employee."

WBAL-TV asked for an interview with Enright, but city officials refused.

Also Wednesday, the police department provided what appears to be a later version of the 2002 crime audit. Miller said that report reduces the number of crimes that had to be reclassified and declares its findings a sign of good performance with room for improvement.

TheWBALChannel.com - News - Ex-Commish Raised Questions During Tenure

Syscom you bring alot to this forum don't end it just b/c you have too much pride to stop talking. Chris is the law here, you can't win vs him. Stop trying to "win" this arguement.

Just end it Syscom by saying something along the lines "lets agree to disagree" and stop posting on this thread. You have, if I am reading Chris's posts correctly, burnt your last bridge with him on this thread.

MODS always get the last word when they want to Syscom. You have been on this forum (and maybe others) long enough to know so. Stop pushing your luck. Syscom you have said you peace, you are not going to convience anyone here of your point, so to keep going is just going to get you banned. Stop being so stubborn.