Absolutely! Wasn't in the most auspicious place (Red Rooster!) to learn the news, but it was very moving to see the relatives on the TV news bulletin react to the discovery.
HSK Kormaran Found of Western Australian Coast
- Thread starter Emac44
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Absolutely! Wasn't in the most auspicious place (Red Rooster!) to learn the news, but it was very moving to see the relatives on the TV news bulletin react to the discovery.
- Thread starter
- #22
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Possibley Kiwi but what I was showing the map I posted was to let people know who are unfamiliar with the Australian Coastline how extensive the area is. Not directly pinpointing the search area of the Western Australian Coast. But giving forum users an idea approximately
ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
I was not aware of this epic battle. Wiki has quite a write up on it. I am
glad that both vessels have been found, and there will be some closure to
the families. It appears the Aussies are really elated.....
Charles
glad that both vessels have been found, and there will be some closure to
the families. It appears the Aussies are really elated.....
Charles
I believe that the first German rounds destroyed the bridge and put the officers out of action the rounds from the Kormaron also separated the bow of the ship and it flipped and sunk rapidly. The crew didnt really a chance to abandon the ship!
Even if they did, what were the chances they were going to be picked up? Probably not very good. I gotta believe some guys made it into the water, they just didn't survive.
Look at the USS Juneau. She went down with 600 some guys on board and about 150 or so made it into the water. A week or two later 14 or so were picked up (by pure accident).
Erich
the old Sage
the story continues.....several rafts were found from the Sydney. I can only guess as well all as the Sydneys two remaining active gun turrets did the Kormoran in that when she sailed off burning the internal explosions and finally the ship cracking and dissolving killed the remaining Allied crewmen. Well even with all the high tech of our age I still do not think over 60 plus years they will put all the pieces together of the action
but in any case in a long weekends time to finally find the two ships is just incredible
but in any case in a long weekends time to finally find the two ships is just incredible
- Thread starter
- #27
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
I don't know Erich. Even though I have no personal tie up in HMAS Sydney. And being an Australian. I still bare a grudge that no Australians survived the sinking of the Sydney. So many men lost in one action by being lured to their deaths by deceit or Burnett making an assumptions of safety even during a War Time Patrol. I see the old photos and films of the Crew of Sydney and realise each and every one of those men on film and photos are dead. They never were abled to return to their families. Unlike the majority of the Crew from Kormoran. I suppose its just a natural reaction to a tragic event Erich. And I am being some what bitter about the loss of life to so many of my own country men
Erich
the old Sage
very understandable, I can think of other ships of both sides........the Hood, Tirpitz and others that were pounded and the loss of life was unbearable and still is with no closure for Familie and friends.
In this case it is almost impossible to understand what was going through Burnetts mind........why did he get so close, had he been that deceived by Detmers camo on the ship as a Dutch freighter ? things like this are so puzzling and we will never know the answers
In this case it is almost impossible to understand what was going through Burnetts mind........why did he get so close, had he been that deceived by Detmers camo on the ship as a Dutch freighter ? things like this are so puzzling and we will never know the answers
- Thread starter
- #29
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Erich I am grateful that you understand. Its just something I can't help feeling. I don't bare grudges against the nation of Germany or its people or its military during WW2 and there after. What I do bare resentment to was and is the National Socialists of Germany from World War 2. These murdering butchers to liberty and justice
Erich
the old Sage
well you're not alone, I lost too many relatives fighting for Germany, and for what ....... ?
All these enigmas surrounding the loss of the HMAS Sydney seem confusing.
I do not know much about this battle except for some basics: a light cruiser and an armed merchant in disguise crossing paths in some distant location off the West Australian coast, a fast exchange of fire and torpedoes, both vessels go down, the bulk of the German crew survives, none of the Australian crew were ever seen again.
What about the opinions and statements of the Kormoran´s commander and the rest of the crew? For the remainder of the war they were POWs -in Australia all the time?-, so it is reasonable to assume Australian authorities had plenty of time to interrogate the German prisoners.
I can deal with the fact there are certain enigmas that might never be solved with regard to this particular battle since all they have is the version of only one of the sides involved but...what is it that the Germans revealed? Is there any information available here?
Do not take this as an inflamatory statement but could this be another case of the allies concealing information? I am sure it is difficult to accept the fact a vessel that was built as light cruiser, with the armor scheme and armament for a vessel of the class, went down in battle against another vessel that was not designed as warship.
How did Australian naval authorities process the information revealed during
the interrogations of the Kormoran´s crew?
Given the circumstances i believe the Germans who were part of this battle should be considered the main source for information that might let the world know what happened or to at least come as close as possible to the actual facts surrounding the battle. Examining the recently found wrecks could also be of help for sure, but i hope the Australians have not dismissed their statemts off hand. There is nothing the ~650 Australian officers and sailors who perished can add to the investigations.
I sympathize with the Australian and German families and relatives who finally get to know where their parents, husbands and friends rest.
I do not know much about this battle except for some basics: a light cruiser and an armed merchant in disguise crossing paths in some distant location off the West Australian coast, a fast exchange of fire and torpedoes, both vessels go down, the bulk of the German crew survives, none of the Australian crew were ever seen again.
What about the opinions and statements of the Kormoran´s commander and the rest of the crew? For the remainder of the war they were POWs -in Australia all the time?-, so it is reasonable to assume Australian authorities had plenty of time to interrogate the German prisoners.
I can deal with the fact there are certain enigmas that might never be solved with regard to this particular battle since all they have is the version of only one of the sides involved but...what is it that the Germans revealed? Is there any information available here?
Do not take this as an inflamatory statement but could this be another case of the allies concealing information? I am sure it is difficult to accept the fact a vessel that was built as light cruiser, with the armor scheme and armament for a vessel of the class, went down in battle against another vessel that was not designed as warship.
How did Australian naval authorities process the information revealed during
the interrogations of the Kormoran´s crew?
Given the circumstances i believe the Germans who were part of this battle should be considered the main source for information that might let the world know what happened or to at least come as close as possible to the actual facts surrounding the battle. Examining the recently found wrecks could also be of help for sure, but i hope the Australians have not dismissed their statemts off hand. There is nothing the ~650 Australian officers and sailors who perished can add to the investigations.
I sympathize with the Australian and German families and relatives who finally get to know where their parents, husbands and friends rest.
I think the Germans didn't know anymore than they told. They last saw the Sydney sailing away, fires on the maindeck and down by the bow. They were probably more worried about saving themselves than what happened to the Sydney after she sailed out of reasonable sight. They were sinking, not moving and just wanted to survive.
Doubt there is any coverup in this one, just an unknown about the ship. There were several ships that happened to during the war that were unknown until after the war. USS Jarvis, USS Pope, USS Pilsbury. All disapeared without a trace, only the Pope having any survivors that came home.
And the German Navy had any number of Subs that went out and just disappeared without a trace. Almost common.
What is unusual about the Sydney is the size of the ship and the number of the souls onboard. But the fact that she disappeared after a shootout with a raider is not all that strange.
Doubt there is any coverup in this one, just an unknown about the ship. There were several ships that happened to during the war that were unknown until after the war. USS Jarvis, USS Pope, USS Pilsbury. All disapeared without a trace, only the Pope having any survivors that came home.
And the German Navy had any number of Subs that went out and just disappeared without a trace. Almost common.
What is unusual about the Sydney is the size of the ship and the number of the souls onboard. But the fact that she disappeared after a shootout with a raider is not all that strange.
Erich
the old Sage
there is NO coverup in the slightest, the govts are trying their best to protect the living vets-German as well as the Families from both sides serving on the Sydney/Kormoran.
enjoy more from the 18th of the month : 18th March 2008 Report - Latest Search Reports
reality is the co-ordinates that Detmers had placed in his after action report captured by the Aussies actually was the position and close to where the HK went down plus though only from the HK's surviving crew - seeing the Sydney on the horizon and then lost ........... the ships crew that discovered the Hk and then used those map placings to determine an approx where the Sydney was lying..........wha la, presto, found
enjoy more from the 18th of the month : 18th March 2008 Report - Latest Search Reports
reality is the co-ordinates that Detmers had placed in his after action report captured by the Aussies actually was the position and close to where the HK went down plus though only from the HK's surviving crew - seeing the Sydney on the horizon and then lost ........... the ships crew that discovered the Hk and then used those map placings to determine an approx where the Sydney was lying..........wha la, presto, found
Vassili Zaitzev
Master Sergeant
Sorry I'm late, but I'm glad they found the Sydney. I read an article in a WW2 magazine about the battle, and wondered what happened to the ship.
To those lost in the battle.
To those lost in the battle.
Erich
the old Sage
Udet................YES, they interviewed every one of the HK's survivors and truthfully due to the point of action there is of course different opinions on how the battle proceeded...........of course many of the HK's crew were below deck and did not get up on top till the abandon ship was ordered while the HK Kormoran was on fire with the Mines on-board about ready to blow which she did after the crew got off and away.
Detmers wrote his memories down in his book "Raider Kormoran" in which I am trying to find a decent copy. Obviously it is his own version of the events of the ship and the final battle with the Sydney but it is what humanity has at it's disposal. There is a truckload of information in the Australian archiv's
Detmers wrote his memories down in his book "Raider Kormoran" in which I am trying to find a decent copy. Obviously it is his own version of the events of the ship and the final battle with the Sydney but it is what humanity has at it's disposal. There is a truckload of information in the Australian archiv's
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Read a brilliant book on the German Raiders...ah the Atlantis and the Pinguin...one of the captains was tried for war crimes...Ruckteschell of the Widder...nasty piece of work.
Well some people believe the Germans killed the Sydneys crew in the lifeboats but there was never proof of this. Just rumour. The fact that no crew of the Sydney survived is rare but not unique.
The German crew were POWs in Australia until 47 and were well treated.
The Sydney got so close to the Kormoran that the crew of the raider.could use machine guns and anti aircraft weapons to kill the topdeck crew. It was a massive mistake to be so close to an unknown vessel and the Germans simply couldn't miss.
Well some people believe the Germans killed the Sydneys crew in the lifeboats but there was never proof of this. Just rumour. The fact that no crew of the Sydney survived is rare but not unique.
The German crew were POWs in Australia until 47 and were well treated.
The Sydney got so close to the Kormoran that the crew of the raider.could use machine guns and anti aircraft weapons to kill the topdeck crew. It was a massive mistake to be so close to an unknown vessel and the Germans simply couldn't miss.
Wildcat
Major
Gents, see here forthe first pics of the Sydney!
3rd April 2008 Report - HMAS Sydney II First Photographs - Latest Search Reports
3rd April 2008 Report - HMAS Sydney II First Photographs - Latest Search Reports
April 2008 - Posts - Latest Search Reports
They released several new ROV images including the first shots of Kormoran.
They released several new ROV images including the first shots of Kormoran.
