If Axis aircraft swap theater?

[Admiral Beez]

Please name a single area where Hurricanes were able to handle a Zero or KI43? Never happened. Not one place. Everywhere Hurricanes encountered Zeros or KI43 you had pilots begging for Spitfires.

What do you mean by area? Geography/theatre? Envelope? What is this turn of phrase?

Outside of a few brief encounters over Malaya and DEI in the first days of the war I can't think of any instances where the Hurricane encountered either a Zero or a Ki-43. Perhaps over Burma?

I expect that every Hurricane pilot begged for a Spitfire, you want the best available to you.

 

[pinsog]

If I was Germany and I had Zeros in 1941, I wouldn't go head to head with Spitfires over England, that is playing to the Spitfires strengths. I would deploy them in far west France the Netherlands and around Bergen Norway with drop tanks and di fighter sweeps targeting British recon and anti submarine patrol planes out of reach of Spitfires. I would also use G3M and G4M planes as torpedo bombers to lay siege to Scapa Flow targeting British heavy ships coming and going as soon as they were out from under Spitfire air cover. When I moved Bismarck into the open ocean I would have had 40 to 80 twin engine torpedo bombers intercept Hood and Prince of Wales and sink them before the could engage Prince Eugene or Bismarck. My subs could operate with impunity just outside of Britain because my Zeros would have cleared the area of anti sub patrol bombers. I would avoid engaging Spitfire if possible by using my much much much superior range. My Kate and twin engine torpedo planes would have also closed off the English Channel to any shipping

 

[Admiral Beez]

Do I think a Zero was the greatest fighter ever?

You might not recognize it, but yes you do. A bigger Zero fan boi has yet to be seen here.

 

[pinsog]

What do you mean by area? Geography/theatre? Envelope? What is this turn of phrase?

Outside of a few brief encounters over Malaya and DEI in the first days of the war I can't think of any instances where the Hurricane encountered either a Zero or a Ki-43. Perhaps over Burma?

I expect that every Hurricane pilot begged for a Spitfire, you want the best available to you.

It was poorly phrased by me, I am referring to theater. They tangled in Burma quite often.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They tangled in Burma quite often.

And did the Oscar handily beat the Hurricane? At the end of the day, it bloody well should considering the Hurricane is a design that first flew in 1935 and entered service in December 1937, nearly four years before the Oscar entered service in October 1941.

This RAF report looks like good reading, StackPath.

Pg. 25 "The Oscar was a good fighter and more fitted for the role in Burma than our dear old and tried Hurricane. The Hurricane would take more punishment but both the Spitfire and the Hurricane lacked range. Furthermore, it is as well to reflect that the single-seat fighter is nothing more than a gun-platform; Of course, we always knew the Japs had more fuel than we did; on the other hand their aircraft could not take the punishment our Hurricanes and Spitfires were subjected to."

Pg.87 "Before October 1943 we only had Hurricanes to confront the Oscars; the Oscar was well made and extremely manoeuvrable, ideal for close-in dog fighting. We gradually learned, however, that the Oscar and the Zero were not very good above about 280-300 mph. The controls became extremely heavy so the answer was to try and keep him in a regime where he was absolutely at a disadvantage and not to dally with him where he was absolutely at an advantage. Hurricane pilots had to learn a completely different form of behaviour when up against Zeros or Oscars. They had to get above the Oscars and then keep their speed up."

Given the design age and condition of the Hurricanes in Burma, the above suggests they did okay against a much more modern design. How well would our Oscar of 1941 do against a fighter that's four years younger, say against a F8F Bearcat or Mk.XIV Spitfire?

 

[pinsog]

You might not recognize it, but yes you do. A bigger Zero fan boi has yet to be seen here.

I disagree. From the Spitfire Hurricane crowd it is always "woulda coulda shoulda, but never did". If I had to fight a Zero in 1941 I would have chosen an FW190, fast, excellent roll rate, tough, great dive. ME109 2nd place because it's fast, fuel injected, great for diving shooting and running away. Weirdly enough if I had to choose I'd pick the Spitfire over the 109 if they were fighting each other. If I were American and had to fight a Zero at this time, I'd choose a P38, there were about 50 on the planet and not really ready for combat, a P43 so I could simply fly above them and not engage, or if actually forced to fight a Zero, a B17, because it's about the only US plane at the time that stood a chance

 

[pinsog]

And did the Oscar handily beat the Hurricane? At the end of the day, it bloody well should considering the Hurricane is a design that first flew in 1935 and entered service in December 1937, nearly four years before the Oscar entered service in October 1941.

This RAF report looks like good reading, StackPath.

Pg. 25 "The Oscar was a good fighter and more fitted for the role in Burma than our dear old and tried Hurricane. The Hurricane would take more punishment but both the Spitfire and the Hurricane lacked range. Furthermore, it is as well to reflect that the single-seat fighter is nothing more than a gun-platform; Of course, we always knew the Japs had more fuel than we did; on the other hand their aircraft could not take the punishment our Hurricanes and Spitfires were subjected to."

Pg.87 "Before October 1943 we only had Hurricanes to confront the Oscars; the Oscar was well made and extremely manoeuvrable, ideal for close-in dog fighting. We gradually learned, however, that the Oscar and the Zero were not very good above about 280-300 mph. The controls became extremely heavy so the answer was to try and keep him in a regime where he was absolutely at a disadvantage and not to dally with him where he was absolutely at an advantage. Hurricane pilots had to learn a completely different form of behaviour when up against Zeros or Oscars. They had to get above the Oscars and then keep their speed up."

Given the design age and condition of the Hurricanes in Burma, the above suggests they did okay against a much more modern design. How well would our Oscar of 1941 do against a fighter that's four years younger, say against a F8F Bearcat or Mk.XIV Spitfire?

I love the 2nd paragraph "they had to get above the Oscars and keep their speed up". Well no kidding. I think the F4F-4 Wildcat would have done great against the ME262, all you have to do is get above them, behind them and within gun range and then shoot them with a long burst.... So how does a Hurricane that is about the same speed as a KI43 depending on the model of each, can't out climb it, doesn't climb as steep, isn't as maneuverable, and depending on the model isn't much faster than 300 mph get above a KI43 and stay above 300 mph during a fight? That is the whole issue. Any fighter can whip another fighter if he starts out above and behind the other guy within gun range. By the way, the KI43 maneuverability DID NOT degrade with high speed like a Zero did. It was one reason the KI43 was so dangerous. AND the KI43 was much more maneuverable than the Zero at low speeds as well. From what I can gather, fighting a KI43 was like fighting a 300+ mph biplane, crazy maneuverable at any speeds

 

[Admiral Beez]

I love the 2nd paragraph "they had to get above the Oscars and keep their speed up". Well no kidding.

If you read further the author says the Hurricane had this very trouble, and that what addressed the issue was the switchover to Spitfires. But this should not be surprising.

Again, the Oscar is nearly four years ahead of the Hurricane, so the former should be better. Same as a Bearcat or Kawasaki Ki-100 that's four years ahead of the Oscar should be better.

 

[pinsog]

If you read further the author says the Hurricane had this very trouble, and that what addressed the issue was the switchover to Spitfires. But this should not be surprising.

Again, the Oscar is nearly four years ahead of the Hurricane, so the former should be better. Same as a Bearcat or Kawasaki Ki-100 that's four years ahead of the Oscar should be better.

It should and it was. That is my point. A Hurricane had no business in the same sky as a Zero or KI43

 

[Admiral Beez]

It should and it was. That is my point. A Hurricane had no business in the same sky as a Zero or KI43

You bring what you've got. The Hurricanes and Hawks did what they could, helping to stop the IJA and IJAF, where besides some raids on Calcutta they never got much further than Burma. Not bad for some old 1930s era fighters.

The Zero should have been replaced in fleet service by the A7M Reppu (or something else) by end of 1942, and had no business facing the Hellcat and Corsair. But you bring what you've got.

 

[pinsog]

Earlier I said the Spit 8 was a beast and I wouldn't want to fight it in an American fighter unless a Mustang or P47 at 30,000 feet where I could simply avoid engaging. Let's look at how that would go.

I'm in a P47M and I jump a Spit 8. If I connect with my first burst he is toast, but instead he sees me as I drop onto his tail and immediately begins a level turn. If I have not already pulled lead and started shooting it is too late. He sees me, he's pulling hard, I only have 1 option, roll wings level and dive away. Every second I try to stay with him in a turn I will lose ground and lose energy. I need to take what speed I have and dive away hoping I can break contact before he reverses his turn and opens fire.

A Spit 8 drops down onto a KI43, the KI43 has a fantastic all around view and he see the Spit 8 dropping down on him. If the Spit hits him with his first burst, game over. If the KI43 starts his turn before the Spit can open fire the Spitfire cannot pull lead on him. The Oscar will continue to gain on the Spitfire in the turn. The Spitfire has 2 options, dive away or climb away. The problem is, the Oscar is so maneuverable that he may be able to reverse the turn and open fire before the Spitfire is out of range. There is "my Hurricane can slightly out turn your F4F" or "my mustang can slightly out turn your 109" snd then there is "my Oscar can fly rings around anything but a biplane" and I think that is the problem with almost anything engaging the Oscar

 

[Admiral Beez]

A Spit 8 drops down onto a KI43, the KI43 has a fantastic all around view and he see the Spit 8 dropping down on him. If the Spit hits him with his first burst, game over. If the KI43 starts his turn before the Spit can open fire the Spitfire cannot pull lead on him.

Hopefully the Ki-43 is a later cannon-armed variant, otherwise he's got the same twin .303 mg armament of a Sopwith Camel.

The Spitfire can rely on his armour, absorb the Oscar's fire and use his superior speed to run clear.

 

[tomo pauk]

If I was Germany and I had Zeros in 1941, I wouldn't go head to head with Spitfires over England, that is playing to the Spitfires strengths. I would deploy them in far west France the Netherlands and around Bergen Norway with drop tanks and di fighter sweeps targeting British recon and anti submarine patrol planes out of reach of Spitfires. I would also use G3M and G4M planes as torpedo bombers to lay siege to Scapa Flow targeting British heavy ships coming and going as soon as they were out from under Spitfire air cover. When I moved Bismarck into the open ocean I would have had 40 to 80 twin engine torpedo bombers intercept Hood and Prince of Wales and sink them before the could engage Prince Eugene or Bismarck. My subs could operate with impunity just outside of Britain because my Zeros would have cleared the area of anti sub patrol bombers. I would avoid engaging Spitfire if possible by using my much much much superior range. My Kate and twin engine torpedo planes would have also closed off the English Channel to any shipping

After the crippling losses in aircrew and aircraft in 1940, when Luftwaffe was using the mix of Ki-27s, A5Ms (maybe, mabe not), G3Ms and a host of other flying torches, who will be seated in the equally flamable Ki-43s, B5Ns and G4Ms in 1941?

 

[pinsog]

Hopefully the Ki-43 is a later cannon-armed variant, otherwise he's got the same twin .303 mg armament of a Sopwith Camel.

View attachment 613764

The Spitfire can rely on his armour, absorb the Oscar's fire and use his superior speed to run clear.

KI43's had 2 303, or 1 50 and 1 303, or 2 50's. I wasn't aware that any Oscars ever had wing mounted weapons. The Oscar with 2 303's is the plane that drove the British all the way back to Australia, so I'm not sure what to tell you. They shot down every Allied aircraft in the area including Buffalos, Hurricanes, P38's, P39's, P40's and every type of bomber deployed in that area as well.

 

[pinsog]

After the crippling losses in aircrew and aircraft in 1940, when Luftwaffe was using the mix of Ki-27s, A5Ms (maybe, mabe not), G3Ms and a host of other flying torches, who will be seated in the equally flamable Ki-43s, B5Ns and G4Ms in 1941?

Reasonable question on getting through 1939 for sure. Not sure when the Zero and KI43 make their appearance in this hypothetical setup. As I said, I probably wouldn't put them head to head against Spitfires in 1941 (or 1940 if that's when they show up). I would simply put Zeros and Oscars out in the North Sea and Atlantic just outside the range of Hurricanes and Spitfires and take out all anti sub patrol aircraft and use G3M and G4M torpedo planes to sink heavy surface ships (battleships, cruisers and carriers) anywhere they catch them out of range of Hurricanes and Spitfires. Without anti sub patrol planes, u boats could have a field day. Val dive bombers could go after destroyers and light cruisers (very difficult for torpedo planes to hit) anywhere outside the cover of Hurricanes and Spitfires.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Oscar with 2 303's is the plane that drove the British all the way back to Australia, so I'm not sure what to tell you.

That has to come down to excellent marksmanship and training of those early war IJAF pilots. In their hands the Oscar was clearly a lethal platform, no question.

 

[tomo pauk]

Reasonable question on getting through 1939 for sure. Not sure when the Zero and KI43 make their appearance in this hypothetical setup. As I said, I probably wouldn't put them head to head against Spitfires in 1941 (or 1940 if that's when they show up). I would simply put Zeros and Oscars out in the North Sea and Atlantic just outside the range of Hurricanes and Spitfires and take out all anti sub patrol aircraft and use G3M and G4M torpedo planes to sink heavy surface ships (battleships, cruisers and carriers) anywhere they catch them out of range of Hurricanes and Spitfires. Without anti sub patrol planes, u boats could have a field day. Val dive bombers could go after destroyers and light cruisers (very difficult for torpedo planes to hit) anywhere outside the cover of Hurricanes and Spitfires.

Geography is still against that (especially west of the Isles), so are the radars. British will not just sail in the North Sea so Luftwaffe can hit their ships, and west of Ireland you still don't have the range to do much.
Bismarck and P.E. are way beyond the fighter protection once close to Iceland, let alone close to Greenland and mid-Atlantic.

Then we have the thing of building up the strength to go against Soviets, if that is attempted at all.

 

[nuuumannn]

Ki-48 i already have max speed of 298 mph though.

High (-ish) speed doesn't always equate to good acceleration. You also don't fly your operations at maximum speed. you'd run out of fuel before you reached your objective and wear your engines down, creating maintenance headaches. The Ju 88 is an example of the reverse here; it wasn't hugely fast flat out but but once its bombs were dropped could out-accelerate Hurricanes attempting to catch them. There are recorded instances of this happening.

Zeros manhandled Tropical Spit V's to the tune of 28-4 over Australia. It was embarrassing.

Yup, sure did, but how would these fighters fare in a ground-controlled interception scenario as tight as the Dowding system in German hands over the southeast of England? The Bf 109E was, at the time of the BoB one of the best fighters in the world in 1940, cannon armament, superior climb and dive to its opponents, fast. In total, the Jagdgeschwadern shot down more enemy fighters than the reverse, but that meant nothing in the long run. The RAF shot down more German aircraft in total than the Germans shot down British over the period in question, but that's another story.

Bf 109s, despite their clear superiority over the Hurricanes in particular, were lost in numbers to them simply because the fighting over Britain played to the strengths of the British fighters, despite the Bf 109s starting from high up and diving on their prey, combat always descended into a turning fight, where the Spit and Hurri could use their superior dogfighting to their advantage. War is never so cut and dried.

I disagree. From the Spitfire Hurricane crowd it is always "woulda coulda shoulda, but never did".

Not until later at least. I wouldn't want to put a late war A6M against a Spitfire XIV at all.

Situation matters in these circumstances and its so easy to say, yup, the Zero and Oscar are superior to the Spit and Hurricane, and yes, in those environments they were, but the fighters alone were not the only factors at play. Darwin and the Far East in late 1941 and early 1942 was not the southeast of England, where the GCI system was in place, fighters had the maintenance and logistical support they needed, access to reserves, pilots, training facilities etc. Environmental factors count. The Allies were so badly unprepared for the Japanese assault, it's no surprise they lost.

 

[pinsog]

High (-ish) speed doesn't always equate to good acceleration. You also don't fly your operations at maximum speed. you'd run out of fuel before you reached your objective and wear your engines down, creating maintenance headaches. The Ju 88 is an example of the reverse here; it wasn't hugely fast flat out but but once its bombs were dropped could out-accelerate Hurricanes attempting to catch them. There are recorded instances of this happening.



Yup, sure did, but how would these fighters fare in a ground-controlled interception scenario as tight as the Dowding system in German hands over the southeast of England? The Bf 109E was, at the time of the BoB one of the best fighters in the world in 1940, cannon armament, superior climb and dive to its opponents, fast. In total, the Jagdgeschwadern shot down more enemy fighters than the reverse, but that meant nothing in the long run. The RAF shot down more German aircraft in total than the Germans shot down British over the period in question, but that's another story.

Bf 109s, despite their clear superiority over the Hurricanes in particular, were lost in numbers to them simply because the fighting over Britain played to the strengths of the British fighters, despite the Bf 109s starting from high up and diving on their prey, combat always descended into a turning fight, where the Spit and Hurri could use their superior dogfighting to their advantage. War is never so cut and dried.



Not until later at least. I wouldn't want to put a late war A6M against a Spitfire XIV at all.

Situation matters in these circumstances and its so easy to say, yup, the Zero and Oscar are superior to the Spit and Hurricane, and yes, in those environments they were, but the fighters alone were not the only factors at play. Darwin and the Far East in late 1941 and early 1942 was not the southeast of England, where the GCI system was in place, fighters had the maintenance and logistical support they needed, access to reserves, pilots, training facilities etc. Environmental factors count. The Allies were so badly unprepared for the Japanese assault, it's no surprise they lost.

Many many 109's simply ran out of fuel during the BoB, not an issue with the Zero. Descending into a dogfight is precisely what a Zero pilot would want although it could fight a Hurricane on any terms it wanted.
The Spitfire 14 is one of the best performing prop fighters ever built so yes, it's not even close when comparing it.

 

[pinsog]

Geography is still against that (especially west of the Isles), so are the radars. British will not just sail in the North Sea so Luftwaffe can hit their ships, and west of Ireland you still don't have the range to do much.
Bismarck and P.E. are way beyond the fighter protection once close to Iceland, let alone close to Greenland and mid-Atlantic.

Then we have the thing of building up the strength to go against Soviets, if that is attempted at all.

When Bismarck and Prince Eugene sailed into the North Sea I would have sent G3M and G4M torpedo bombers to attack Hood and Prince of Wales, not Zeros.
Torpedo armed G3M and G4M bombers could have attacked any heavy units coming in or leaving Scapa Flow from the east as soon as they left the short range protection of Hurricanes and Spitfires. U boat sightings of any heavy units outside the RAF fighter umbrella would produce an immediate long range torpedo strike from western Norway.
The entire North Sea would be within range of drop tank carrying Zeros based in Norway, Denmark and The Netherlands. A G4M with German radar escorted by Zeros would be a serious threat to any RAF patrol bomber in the North Atlantic.

Get on Google Earth and look how far a Zero could fly with a drop tank. They flew 500 miles one way when attacking Australia. If all they were doing were fighter sweeps out over the Atlantic and the North Sea looking for patrol bombers it is amazing how much territory they could cover. Flying out of Brest, they could fly to the North shore of Northern Ireland and return (not that they would, just pointing out the distance)