Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Those numbers were a quick overview.There are two types of information being used here.
The Figures for personnel are just for the Germans.
The Figures for material a combined total of German and Italian. For instance the Germans may only have shipped 1434 tanks to North Africa, Now maybe the Germans lost around 1100 armored cars, sp guns and armored 1/2 tracks or perhaps hundreds of Italian tanks are included in the total?
The Italians did loose 10s of thousands of truck and the vast majority of the shipping was Italian.
Of the German tanks sent to North Africa 54 were Pz 1s, 177 were Pz IIs, 832 were Pz IIIs (a small number still had 37mm guns), 307 were Pz IVs and 31 were Tigers. 33 were command tanks (?).
Another source claims that the Germans lost 240 Pz II, III, IV tanks in NA from June 1941 through Dec. Germans lost total, on both fronts over 3300 tanks/tank chassis vehicles of all types during that time period. A number of the vehicles lost in Russia were salvaged/rebuilt. What the German workshop units in the NA were able to do I don't know. They did some work but compared to shipping tanks back to the factories it was not as much and their is a difference between break downs and combat damage.
It's noteworthy that in both their greatest successes, that against Poland and France, the Germans benefited from an "ally" opening up a second front that disrupted the defenders. OTOH, when the Germans faced an opponent who was entirely focused against them, be it Sealion or Barbarossa, the Germans were found wanting.
If you want to spend (waste?) hours of your life reading about possible means of invading Malta by the Axis at any time from 1940 to 1943 you could spend time over on the Axis History Forum where it has been done to death on multiple occasions involving all sorts of permutations. Bottom line. Not so easy as it might appear at any time. A few links to get you started.I was half paying attention to a video about Italy in WW II. It was postulated that had Italy not bothered with Greece and other adventures, Italy may have been able to grab Malta instead. That sounded intriguing. I didn't watch it through since Shortround6, EwenS, and Geoffrey Sinclair weren't part of the panel.
This may be of interest. Note how far south the German advance was when hostilities ceased compared to the Italian penetration along the coast.I don't think the Alpine front made much for the Germans -- they'd already done all the driving up north before the Italians decided to step in. The Alpine troops, like the Maginot troops, were screwed by the sichelschnitt and subsequent pivot to the south.
Yes, those troops would have made things tougher for the Germans, but no, they weren't enough in number -- and had little enough mobility -- to be meaningful. Not much armor, not much transport to allow them to get into Gamelin's checkerboard-defense in time to stave off the second Wehrmacht offensive in June. Given Italy's leanings, those French troops were pinned down whether or not Italy joined into active combat, especially given their largely static nature.
The whole point of World War II was to conquer Russia. If Hitler decides that Russians are okay, that they have a right to continue existing and controlling territory, there is no WWII in the west. The war in China continues, of course.Let's consider Poland-Italy relations. The Polish–Italian Declaration of Friendship and Cooperation was signed on February 6, 1930 in Rome.
If we can agree that Wikipedia is worth anything, here goes... Italy–Poland relations - Wikipedia
"Italy supported Poland in the Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921, and sold large amounts of weapons to Poland, including millions of rifles and bullets, 45 cannons and many uniforms.
Italy did not approve of Germany's invasion of Poland, which started World War II in 1939. Some of the escape routes of Poles who fled from occupied Poland to Hungary and Romania led through Italy. Via Italy the Poles further reached Polish-allied France, where the Polish Army was reconstituted to continue the fight against Germany. The Polish II Corps participated in the Italian Campaign, and 11,379 men died, many of them being buried at the Monte Cassino Polish War Cemetery or at Casamassima. Meanwhile, despite little contact between Italians and Poles throughout the war, the Italian Army was believed to be among the most lenient toward Poles and never treated Poles as brutally as their German counterparts."
Could Mussolini and Italy overall continue positive relations with Poland into the 1930s? Perhaps a strong relationship with Poland will see Mussolini pressing Hitler to not invade, while OTOH Mussolini could try to reduce the British-French relationship with Poland. If so, what does Poland's relationship with Germany look like in the late 1930s? 1939 German ultimatum to Poland - Wikipedia
Many problems:-By autumn 1942, Britain should have a sizeable fleet ready to sail for Ceylon in preparation for an earlier execution of Operation Zipper, Mailfist and Dracula, perhaps in 1943. Assuming that Malaya, Singapore and Burma have fallen in the first place.
Let us not forget that Lloyd Fredendall will hold a significant command in a non-battle hardened US army.2. When does the invasion of France take place, given no Med campaign in 1943? Can it be advanced? As the planners for Operation Roundup found, probably not due to a lack of amphibious shipping amongst many other problems, to put an army ashore and then support it. Again a well debated internet topic. For example.
Fair, but it does complicate things for the Germans if the Brits get French gold (billions of dollars worth) plus the fleet and manpower of the colonies.The French lost the cream of their army in northern France, and the British were evicted. Would Gamelin's strategy have been different without Italian involvement? I don't think so; he still has to consider the Italian threat and can't strip that front. Metropolitan France is still lost.
Whether some continue to fight on from North Africa doesn't save France itself.
I mean in France Germany was outnumbered by 4 nations fighting them while still fighting in Norway. The Italians only showed up later. In Poland the Poles were basically defeated by the time the Soviets showed up and they only hastened the end of the campaign. Also don't forget that France invaded Germany somewhat during the Polish campaign and caused some diversion of German troops, so that isn't really all that accurate. In the BoB there were other things going on, so not really a fair comparison. In Barbarossa the Soviets nearly lost and if not for Hitler's mistakes they probably would have collapsed, despite Germany also fighting on multiple other fronts and being delayed.It's noteworthy that in both their greatest successes, that against Poland and France, the Germans benefited from an "ally" opening up a second front that disrupted the defenders. OTOH, when the Germans faced an opponent who was entirely focused against them, be it Sealion or Barbarossa, the Germans were found wanting.
If Italy was neutral you think they'd have intervened? Or do you mean in the context of them fighting in the war already?The armistice allowed the transfer of some troops and civilians across to FNA without an engagement between the three fleets in the Mediterranean. Had the metropolitan front stabilised long enough for a transfer of the French army and equipment to FNA then inevitably the Italians would have intervened to stop it and the transports be defended by the French and British naval forces. Should the transfer been able to send the major part of the forces to FNA it would put the Italians in a difficult place in Libya. Again the Armistice played its part in the OTL situation. Essentially the opportunity was taken to make French PoWs and Southern France into hostages to Germany and control the problem politically rather than by a sea war.
Why would they attack Italy if it were neutral?The French forces in the Alps were capable of holding off the Italians by themselves but were the same forces that would be evacuated to FNA had France fought on. The Germans were very clever to agree to an Armistice, delay evacuations and neutralise any chance of France fighting on. The raison d'etre of Vichy was to prevent the occupation of Southern France and this coloured Vichy actions thereafter. It was the saviour of what was left of France in the eyes of many at the time and the legitimate government.
Had the evacuation been successful and Germany taking over all of Metropolitan France one might find the Mediterranean to be a Franco British lake and Italian Libya attacked from both East and West and rolling up Italian Libya by the middle of 1941. French colonies across the world continuing the fight and French Indo China reinforced to deter Japanese aggression and avoid the loss of Malaya and Burma. Maybe deterring Japan from beginning a war at all.
Right. Also potentially pressure Greece into the war even without Italian entry, not to mention Turkey. Of course then there is the entire problem of Operation Pike...A neutral Italy allows the evacuation of the French army to FNA and continue the war to liberate France with the same knock ons as above across the world with no need to take Libya.
That didn't stop the Allies in WW1, the French basically invaded Salonika and IOTL were planning on doing the same:It still leaves the Franco British with the problem of where to go next to find a way to engage Germany on land. Italy, the Balkans and Iberia are neutral counties determined not to provoke the Germans, who have now buffer states protecting their southern flank when Barbarossa is launched. With the Commonwealth and American industry supplying all the Franco British allies it limits the aid that can be supplied to the Soviet Union but at least there is a warm water route to southern Russia either through Syria etc. or through the Suez Canal and Iran. This can run all year round and is largely out of range of major German air and naval attack with Franco British airfields all along the shore of North Africa and naval bases there and in the Indian Ocean.
In Indochina? That was already being used IIRC, which is why the Japanese moved into the country in 1940-41.China, which has been fighting the Japanese for years, will now have a direct land route for military supplies to combat the Japanese so that war will be very different in countless ways.
Depends on how long the war goes on in the east.It opens up the whole 'what if' history to a wholesale change to post BoF history. Maybe the eventual engagement with the Germans may be in Northern France in 1943 and a far slower advance across France into Germany?
Oh the US would still try to provoke that war.With no Japanese attack upon the USA in the Pacific America may have no involvement except industrially. Not entirely unakin to the British role in the Russo Japanese war whereby Japan was propped up by British loans and financial guarantees without which they would have found it difficult to prosecute the war at all.
I know this is a long-standing myth, but the only way the US "provoked" the war was by not kowtowing to Japan's attacks on China.Oh the US would still try to provoke that war.
Read and judge for yourself. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a way out and save face, the US wasn't having it. Also why was China a fight or die issue for the US? After all the US has the Munro doctrine for our backyard.I know this is a long-standing myth, but the only way the US "provoked" the war was by not kowtowing to Japan's attacks on China.
Oh the US would still try to provoke that war.
That'll never happen. Nazis be Nazis. The question is can the Poles finagle a way to survive when the Germans invade Russia? And can Italy play a role? Is there a Polish fascist movement (beyond the fringe) that would be willing to collaborate with Germany? Otherwise, Hitler's going to be shopping for…The whole point of World War II was to conquer Russia. If Hitler decides that Russians are okay…
That could work, as the USSR & Japan were not at war with each other. One does not know how Hitler would react to something like that.Italian presence in China
View attachment 825213
Considering the IJA attacked every other Western Power in China, so would Italy in Dec 1941
Besides sinking USS Panay, the Japanese also damaged the CL Raimondo Montecuccoli in 1937, there was some history there, with Italy far more friendly with the KMT
Italian/US relations were good to cordial during the 1930s, so December 8, they have something in common.
May join the US&UK in the Pacific. while sitting out Europe