If the US built Hispano-Suiza HS.404 had been successful...

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by gjs238, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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    ...Where might we have seen it employed, other than in fighters?
     
  2. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    It did show up in a few bombers But the early versions worked best with a support fairly well out the barrel. After all the gun ws designed to be mounted like this

    hs404-i.jpg

    It took a while to get versions that could be mounted in turrets even after switching to belt feed.
     
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  3. Greyman

    Greyman Active Member

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    It was supposed to form the bulk of single and quadruple mounts made in Canada (2,600 single mounts, 1,000 quadruple mounts - 6,600 guns ordered).

    Fortunately the requirement evaporated with the Luftwaffe in 1944 so the fact that the American Hispanos weren't exactly satisfactory didn't effect things too much.

    58303173_inglplst.jpg
     
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  4. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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    #4 gjs238, Mar 15, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015

    The M45 Quadmount (.50 caliber M2 Brownings) was introduced in 1943.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M45_Quadmount

    1280px-G-508_GMC_CCKW-353-B2_with_m55_Machine-gun_mount_pic3.JPG
     
  5. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    The Avro Lincoln used a top turret with a pair of Hispanos.

    TorretasuperiorAvroLincoln1jpg.jpg
    raaf-lincoln_a73_29.jpg
    Lincoln2.jpg

    It is a big turret and still most of the gun/s are outside.

    Israeli twin 20mm mount (modified US quad .50 cal mount)
    TCM-20-hatzerim.jpg

    Note the pipes and brackets to provide support well out on the barrel of the 20mm guns.
     
  6. Koopernic

    Koopernic Active Member

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    #6 Koopernic, Mar 16, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
    Given that the usually solid 0.5 inch round seems to lack an effective self destruct facility I have a feeling the 0.5 browning would have been less popular with the US Army if it had of been tasked with use over the US civil population itself. From memory German 20mm rounds self destructed after 3.8 seconds.

    For AAA the western allies gravitated towards a modified Oerlikon canon. The modification was a more powerful cartridge which increased velocity at the expense of cadence. The "Oerlikon" is often regarded as a Swiss design but it is a derivative of the German WW1 Becker canon. After WW1 German companies developed ways of parking their technology, patents and earning a little money by using shelf companies in neutrals or reaching licence agreements and taking shares etc.

    Companies such as Bofors, Oerlikon benefited from this.

    The Oerlikon was recoil operated instead of gas operated and so a much lower fire rate than the Hispano. It was however relatively light, reliable and easy to maintain. Equipped in a twin or double mount, with a 60 round magazine gave it long firing times before the need to reload, it was well loved because it could be easily installed in many locations on a ship (or elsewhere), with a little shield. It could operate independently of power (though I presume the gyro site might need power). The US Navy reckoned that the 40mm boffors destroyed 40% of targets and the Oerlikon also 40% (which gives you an idea of how close the enemy could get).

    The German quad 2.0cm C38 canon, the famous "vierling" was a very powerful weapon that could fire continuously but it might take 7 men to fully man it.

    These quad Hispano's look like they have a big magazine, at least 60 perhaps 100 round. I would imagine that they were rather heavy and hard to change. The German vierling used only 40 round clips but they were quick and easy to change with alternative pairs of guns allowing more or less continuous fire.

    For single guns with light manning I would judge the bigger magazines more useful.

    These Hispano mounts all look like heavy power driven mounts for us with RPC (remote power control) rather than being manually trained. If that complexity is the case why not use the longer ranged 40mm bofors?
     
  7. Greyman

    Greyman Active Member

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    I'm sure the quad Hispano was still lighter, more 'agile' and threw out a better wall of lead. Less range and 'stopping' power though. I'm sure it would have had its place if the Luftwaffe was still a factor.

    British 20mm ammunition wasn't self destroying either, and was certainly a cause for concern.
     
  8. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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    Hispanos on tanks, half-tracks and other vehicles?
     
  9. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    Still odd the US didn't develop the browning beyond .50 cal ... the basic design seemed to scale up well enough to 20-37 mm caliber in Japanese practice, but I haven't even seen any mention of attempted adaptations of such in the US. (Browning did design the M4 37 mm cannon used in the P-39, but that wasn't related -and performed much worse than the .30/.50 BMG based 37 mm gun)

    Same could be said for the becker/oerlikon derived guns though, Japan developed those further than anyone else bothered to as well. (that and noone bothered to adopt the FFL other than the IJN ... just FFF or some attempts at the heavier FFS -those early attempts with the spitfire and hurricane using FFS cannons probably would have fared better with FFLs)
     
  10. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    No.
    The Ground forces preferred the Oerlikon as did the Navy/s. It may have required less maintenance. Since the projectiles were in many instances the same there is no difference in target effect. MV was almost identical between Allied Oerlikon and the Hispano. British preferred the Polsten gun (developed by Polish engineers) as it was much cheaper to manufacture.

    BTW the German 20mm flak guns used 20 round magazines, not 40. Confusion comes in because they were carried in a box that held two magazines.
    2cm_Boxes_1s-834x627.jpg
     
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