If the USAF would not have chosen a version of the Navy's F4 Phantom as its primary fighter through 1960s to mid-1970s, what would it have chosen?

[Conslaw]

I think the Phantom is an excellent aircraft, but I was wondering what the United States Air Force would have done if had chosen not to adopt the F4. Your thoughts?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think they would have relied upon the Century-series until the lessons of Vietnam propelled the -15 and -16 production anyway.

Defense budgets in the 60s had a large chunk taken up by the operational expenses in Vietnam, and McNamara was all about efficiencies, so I'm not sure he'd okay yet another program, especially once the F-111 grew to be a money-hog. I doubt the Air Force could afford the -111, a hypothetical F-14 to replace the aging fighters, on top of developing the -15 and -16.

The F-4 was too useful and could hold the tide while the 4G fighters were being developed. Why insert another piece into the puzzle, is my opinion -- and that's all it is.

 

[Graeme]

 

[GreenKnight121]

The USAF had been planning to buy more F-106As to equip some of TAC's fighter squadrons that were assigned air-combat duties (as opposed to the F-100 & F-105 units that were primarily ground-attack squadrons).

There was even discussion of an improved fighter-killer version of the F-106 bomber-interceptor, but the selection of the F-110 Spectre (initial USAF designation of their version of the F4H-1 Phantom [USN pre-1962 designation for what became the F-4B in October 1962]) ended all talk of new orders of any variant of the F-106.

 

[Conslaw]

I think they would have relied upon the Century-series until the lessons of Vietnam propelled the -15 and -16 production anyway.

Defense budgets in the 60s had a large chunk taken up by the operational expenses in Vietnam, and McNamara was all about efficiencies, so I'm not sure he'd okay yet another program, especially once the F-111 grew to be a money-hog. I doubt the Air Force could afford the -111, a hypothetical F-14 to replace the aging fighters, on top of developing the -15 and -16.

The F-4 was too useful and could hold the tide while the 4G fighters were being developed. Why insert another piece into the puzzle, is my opinion -- and that's all it is.

Do you have a thought on which Century Series fighters the USAF would have relied on? The F-101 was really only successful in photo-recon. The F-102 was supplanted by the F-106, which was strictly air-to-air. The AF really never liked the F-104 much. It couldn't carry much ordinance, had no range, and apparently it was inferior as an interceptor to the F-106. The F-105 was very successful in the bomber role, and the AF likely would have the production line extended, but it was not great in air-to-air. The F-106 was never really explored to its limits. The F-107, all-weather Mach 2 sequel to the F-100 is interesting, and likely more versatile than the other Centuries, but it still sees to me to be inferior generally to the F4 Phantom. But for the Phantom, I think the F-107 would have gone into production, but I don't think it was the ultimate answer. The F-108 was never completed. It was too expensive, and had questionable utility. the XF-109 was a VTOL concept that wasn't going to be practical. The F-4 was the F-110. The F-111 was too expensive to be the AIr Force's general fighter, and wasn't well-tailored to air-to-air combat. The up-engined F-8 Crusader looked like it could take on all comers in the air-to-air department, but was not even in the same league as the F-4 as a bomb truck.

 

[Conslaw]

View attachment 627715

I think of all the practical alternatives, the F8U-3 had the most potential in the air-to-air role. Perhaps combined with the F-105 as a ground-pounder and F-106 as a specialized interceptor, the Air Force could get buy until the mid-1970s when the F-15 and F-16 would become available.

 

[Zipper730]

The USAF had been planning to buy more F-106As to equip some of TAC's fighter squadrons that were assigned air-combat duties (as opposed to the F-100 & F-105 units that were primarily ground-attack squadrons).

Yeah, I figure that would have been the most likely scenario: More F-106's and F-105's would have been procured

There was even discussion of an improved fighter-killer version of the F-106

Prior to the F-4? I do remember in Vietnam there was some looking into the idea of fitting a gunpack to the F-106 (which was ultimately done, IIRC, in the 1970's)

 

[Admiral Beez]

What about the F-101? It became Canada’s primary fighter until the Hornet.

If there’s no USAF Phantom II, it begs the question what does the Luftwaffe, Japan, Greece, etc. use?

 

[Admiral Beez]

View attachment 627715

Isn’t that for the Navy? In the OP it’s the USAF that’s not getting the Phantom. No mention of the navy.

As the Phantom was intended for the navy, the USN presumably still gets theirs.

 

[GrauGeist]

I suspect that North American's F-108 proposal may have had a chance, if the AF did not purchase the F-110 (F-4).

 

[Admiral Beez]

I suspect that North American's F-108 proposal may have had a chance, if the AF did not purchase the F-110 (F-4).

Isn't the F-108 chasing the same long-range, high-speed interceptor dead end as the CF-105. The USAF needs a multirole fighter, something like the role the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter was undertaking at the time, but with twin engines, two-seats and excellent radar-guided missile capability.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The USAF needs a multirole fighter, something like the role the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter was undertaking at the time, but with twin engines, two-seats and excellent radar-guided missile capability.

"Needed" but didn't fully understand what it was going to take and the F-Wonderlemon (111) at the time wasn't going to cut it. The F-108 would have gone through hefty re-design.

 

[Zipper730]

I suspect that North American's F-108 proposal may have had a chance, if the AF did not purchase the F-110 (F-4).

Unlikely because the F-108 was cancelled in 1959 and McNamara forced the F-4 on the USAF in 1962.

 

[Admiral Beez]

With no Phantom, perhaps Hawker's P.1121 or its twin engined P.1125 would have had a chance to grab some of the F-4's European biz.

 

[GrauGeist]

Unlikely because the F-108 was cancelled in 1959 and McNamara forced the F-4 on the USAF in 1962.

Oops, my bad.

I thought the thread was titled:
"If the USAF would not have chosen a version of the Navy's F4 Phantom as its primary fighter through 1960s to mid-1970s, what would it have chosen?"

 

[SaparotRob]

That’s a sweet looking airplane.

 

[GreenKnight121]

Oops, my bad.

I thought the thread was titled:
"If the USAF would not have chosen a version of the Navy's F4 Phantom as its primary fighter through 1960s to mid-1970s, what would it have chosen?"

Still the case that the F-108 had been canceled 3 years before the USAF ever considered the F-4, so it would still be out of the running.

 

[wlewisiii]

I would expect that if the F-110/F-4 hadn't been adopted, then we'd have built more F-105's for bombing and F-106's as fighters. Perhaps we might have taken some of the lessons of the Dassault Mirage series, especially from the later IAI variants, the Nesher and Kfir?

I would imagine that the F-102 would stick around longer too in the training role and perhaps as an F-5 equivalent role?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I would expect that if the F-110/F-4 hadn't been adopted, then we'd have built more F-105's for bombing and F-106's as fighters. Perhaps we might have taken some of the lessons of the Dassault Mirage series, especially from the later IAI variants, the Nesher and Kfir?

Why not just put bombs on the F-106?

 

[wlewisiii]

You possibly could to a later version. Short term, they already have the Thud and, IIUC, the 106 wasn't originally designed to hang ordinance from.

This is another place where learning from Dassault & IAI would be good.