Impact of Me262 timeline moved up 12 months?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by wiking85, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
    Assuming this happened in April 1943 instead and the first combat operations Me262 fighter entered service in early October 1943 with 40 Me262s what impact would that have had on Allied strategic air operations?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommando_Nowotny
     
  2. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    that was also about the time of the Schweinfurt raids so bombing would have been pulled back like they were or changed completely to night raids.
    it would have accelerated the allies jet programs....
    perhaps more losses to bomber crews...
    once long range escorts were available allies would concentrate on more preemptive fighter attacks on airdromes the jets use earlier than they did
    escorts tactics may have to adapt
     
  3. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Could 40 brand new Me262s be routed there in time and make an impact given their limited experience against bombers? I mean they'd be innovating new tactics basically. Of course given historically the 2nd Schweinfurt caused the pull back to bombing targets in France until Big Week would they really stop daylight raids?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Raid_on_Schweinfurt#Result
    Would they even go for Big Week if that threat existed?
     
  4. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    When the allies pinpoint where they are then they will be 40 Me262s under attack from everything the allies have. The 262 was formidable but had no overall effect on the war at all apart from the experience of the men who faced them. If it did have an effect being introduced in 1943 it would only be to move slightly the Russian front westwards.
     
  5. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    They would need far more than 40 to have an impact, even in 1943. The Fw190A-5 and A-6 were already scouring the bomber formations and it did little to stem the tide. When the Fw190A-8 entered service, with even more devestating firepower, the bombers kept coming.

    However, *if* Germany were somehow able to field perhaps 1,000 Me262s by mid/late 1943, then I am sure the Allies would have to rethink their bombing strategy.
     
  6. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    So would the R4M for piston engine fighters have more of an effect in 1943? That ultimately proved to be the best weapon that the Me262 fielded against bomber boxes, no reason that the rockets couldn't function in the same way for SE fighters outside the range of the bomber defenses without weighing them down with heavy cannons.
     
  7. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, that the R4M entered service in 1944.
     
  8. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Allies would have looked at ways of accelerating their own programs I think.

    There is certainly wriggle room for the allies to advance their programs if the need arose. this is from wiki, but gives a pretty good overview....

    "In 1928, RAF College Cranwell cadet Frank Whittle formally submitted his ideas for a turbo-jet to his superiors. In October 1929, he developed his ideas further. On 16 January 1930 in England, Whittle submitted his first patent (granted in 1932). The patent showed a two-stage axial compressor feeding a single-sided centrifugal compressor. Practical axial compressors were made possible by ideas from A.A.Griffith in a seminal paper in 1926 ("An Aerodynamic Theory of Turbine Design"). Whittle would later concentrate on the simpler centrifugal compressor only, for a variety of practical reasons. Whittle had his first engine running in April 1937. It was liquid-fuelled, and included a self-contained fuel pump. Whittle's team experienced near-panic when the engine would not stop, accelerating even after the fuel was switched off. It turned out that fuel had leaked into the engine and accumulated in pools. So the engine would not stop until all the leaked fuel had burned off. Whittle was unable to interest the government in his invention, and development continued at a slow pace". opportunity for the british to get in early, if the govt had seen the potential.

    By comparison, the german efforts started late, cheated somewhat, and in the critical years were much better resourced that whittle could ever hope for in the climate of apathy he was forced to work in...

    From the same article quoted above

    "In 1935, Hans von Ohain started work on a similar design in Germany, and it is often claimed that he was unaware of Whittle's work. Ohain said that he had not read Whittle's patent and Whittle believed him (Frank Whittle 1907-1996) however the Whittle patent was in German libraries and Whittle's son had suspicions that Ohain had read or heard of it.

    Years later, it was admitted by von Ohain in his biography that this was not so. Author Margaret Conner states ″Ohain's patent attorney happened upon a Whittle patent in the years that the von Ohain patents were being formulated". Von Ohain himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "We thought that it was not seriously being worked on." As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935, this admission clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it in some detail prior to filing his own patent and some 2 years before his own engine ran.

    VON OHAIN: 'Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things." "When I saw Whittle’s patent, I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems.'

    His first device was strictly experimental and could only run under external power but he was able to demonstrate the basic concept. Ohain was then introduced to Ernst Heinkel, one of the larger aircraft industrialists of the day, who immediately saw the promise of the design. Heinkel had recently purchased the Hirth engine company, and Ohain and his master machinist Max Hahn were set up there as a new division of the Hirth company. They had their first HeS 1 centrifugal engine running by September 1937. Unlike Whittle's design, Ohain used hydrogen as fuel, supplied under external pressure. Their subsequent designs culminated in the gasoline-fuelled HeS 3 of 1,100 lbf (5 kN), which was fitted to Heinkel's simple and compact He 178 airframe and flown by Erich Warsitz in the early morning of 27 August 1939, from Rostock-Marienehe aerodrome, an impressively short time for development. The He 178 was the world's first turbojet-powered aircraft to fly.

    The world's first turboprop was the Jendrassik Cs-1 designed by the Hungarian mechanical engineer György Jendrassik. It was produced and tested in the Ganz factory in Budapest between 1938 and 1942. It was planned to fit to the Varga RMI-1 X/H twin-engined reconnaissance bomber designed by László Varga in 1940 but the program was cancelled. Jendrassik had also designed a small-scale 75 kW turboprop in 1937.

    Whittle's engine was starting to look useful and his Power Jets Ltd. started receiving Air Ministry money. In 1941, a flyable version of the engine called the W.1, capable of 1000 lbf (4 kN) of thrust, was fitted to the Gloster E28/39 airframe specially built for it and first flew on 15 May 1941 at RAF Cranwell".
     
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  9. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Parsifal the problem with that suggestion of an earlier Whittle engine is that the Me262 showing up a year early doesn't accelerate the TL of the British program, because that would require a 1920s change, not the 1943 surprise appearance of the Me262. As it was they found out about the Me262 in 1943 historically and tried to rush the Meteor, but couldn't get it out there anywhere soon enough.
     
  10. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Historically, the Me262 could have shown up sooner than it did, had the German leadership not insisted that the Me262 be a bomber. The Ar234 would fill that role far better anyway.
     
  11. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    The issue was the engines from what I can tell. Unless you can somehow get the rare mineral intensive Jumo 004A ready by 1942 making the Me262 a fighter or bomber air frame doesn't matter until 1944.
     
  12. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Hey would a quad 20mm set of nose cannons make more sense for the Me262 more than the MK108 due to greater range and velocity?
     
  13. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    I was assuming that those 40 were just the start...that within several months there would be several hundred 262s in the air. and that other jet groups would be added and replacing the role of the slower prop driven ac.
     
  14. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Even 40 operating against the 2nd Schweinfurt should be good to knock down at least and additional 40 aircraft if not more. Which would be a pretty brutal loss for the USAAF.
     
  15. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    It did matter.

    The nose-mounted hardpoints and release mechanism had to be installed, which dictated a need for a separate assembly process. So either you build a bomber or you build a fighter.

    The MG151/20 was a deadly weapon, but the Mk108 was devastating to it's targets.

    So this is a tough call to make - on the one hand, the 20mm had good results on it's target, better range, better RoF, and a higher capacity but on the otherhand, you had the ability to break wings off fighters, blow engines out of their nacelles and literally tear bombers apart with the 30mm.
     
  16. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    It comes down to scoring kills. 15-20 hits from the 20mm is sufficient to kill, which with 4 20mms is a fraction of a second burst center mass. So it comes down to being able to open up at longer range, carrying more ammo, be more accurate, and have a greater chance to stay out of return fire range. Add in some air breaks and you're going to at least double the chance for a kill.
     
  17. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Why does everyone have an obsession with airbrakes on the '262?

    You do realize, that once the airspeed is bled off, the Me262 becomes an easier target to the defenders?

    It also means they have to throttle up again, consuming more of their limited fuel.

    The jet pilots devised a great tactic that allowed them to get in close, unleash a short and deadly volley and get away quickly. It entailed diving down from above and behind the bomber, allowing the cannon to rake across the fuselage and mainwing as they passed over and down beyond the target. As they dove, their speed would build up enough to carry them back up to altitude without having to increase their throttle and they would come about and dive back in and repeat the attack once again. This technique would not only help conserve fuel, but it also frustrated the defenders, in turn minimizing their exposure to any accurate defensive fire. In addition, the angle which they used to attack guaranteed successful hits on their targets and in vital areas, too.

    The other advantage to keeping you speed up, was about the time you had made a successful attack pass, there would be several VERY angry escorts diving down in pursuit...so this built up speed assisted in a graceful exit simply by bringing the nose up and add a little throttle to out climb them.
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    That's the date we should be considering, not when a handful of prototypes take to the air.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
    Conditions for training and deployment of a new fighter unit are much more favorable during Spring 1944 than during Spring 1945. So JG 7 might be operational during February 1944. Just in time for "Big Week".
     
  19. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Eric Brown said the roller coaster method didn't allow for aiming and the air brakes would allow for a couple extra seconds to acquire the target and fire accurately. But the historical dive method didn't protect from defensive fire or enemy fighter counter tactics. The safest method turned out to be the R4M fired from the flank outside of defensive fire range.
    There is a ton of first hand info into operations here from both sides:
    Amazon.com: The Me 262 Stormbird: From the Pilots Who Flew, Fought, and Survived It (9780760342633): Colin D. Heaton, Anne-Marie Lewis, Jorg Czypionka, Barrett Tillman: Books
     
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  20. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think will happen during Big Week then?
     
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