Impact of one change on HMS Glorious

[ThomasP]

Anyone interested in the Short and Kimmel issue might find the Dorn Report interesting:

 

[SaparotRob]

That is a very illuminating read. Thanks ThomasP for that post.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Anyone interested in the Short and Kimmel issue might find the Dorn Report interesting:

I don't have the time to read it now, but I sure will in the next couple of days. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Anyone interested in the Short and Kimmel issue might find the Dorn Report interesting:

I wonder if the Italians had a similar investigation and report after Matapan.

 

[don4331]

Victorious launched a decent strike, I think eight or so Swordfish, at Bismarck, with one inconsequential hit(?) on the belt. Ark Royal launched the two strikes (first attacking Sheffield), and the second landing a couple of hits, including the eventually-fatal rudder hit. A lot more than five Stringbags involved.

Glorious would have to hope for at least one of her five planes to score an honest hit. Perhaps such a hit would've dissuaded Hoffman from further pursuit. But I don't think five Swordfish versus two BCs have that much opportunity, myself.

Glorious got caught napping, but I doubt five torpedo bombers would've changed much. They couldn't avail themselves of reloads given circumstances, and both launching and landing would have to take wind into account, further complicating matters.

A standing patrol of a couple of airplanes would have helped much better in order to spot and avoid, not combat, the Ugly Sisters. Having more boilers online would be useful too.

KM AAA in '39-42 timeframe used the Mark 1 eyeball for sighting.

Victorious strike on Bismarck was done at dusk with Swordfish attacking out of sun, making it extremely difficult for gunners on Bismarck to see its attackers. While Bismarck didn't manage to shoot down any planes in the actual attack, one failed to make it back to Victorious.

During the Ark Royal attack on Bismarck, the Swordfish were using their RADAR to locate the German battleship because weather conditions were that atrocious. Bismarck's RADAR detection system made her aware of the impending attack - so she was running at full speed; no longer cruising when the FAA TB arrived. But AAA crews couldn't see their attackers to get proper fix. They did respond with HAA barrage fire using the information form the RADAR detectors, in effort to break up attack, but that really helped the Swordfish crews more as they could zero in on the muzzle flashes while the barrage was very imprecise as the detectors weren't designed for fire control. The during actual torpedo runs, Swordfish were only visible for less than a minute, for less than it took for the computing sights to lock in on target.

In contrast, when dozen Albacores attacked Tirpitz in excellent visibility, Tirpitz first salvo downed the closest Apple core making that hammer & anvil attack. She then shifted to the 2nd Albacore and dropped it with 2nd salvo. (well, may be a little hyperbole in there, but German BB shot down the closest 2 in rapid succession as they commenced their runs). The 3rd and 4th Apple cores hastily dropped their torpedoes and beat it back to Victorious. Tirpitz easily evaded the torpedoes and made it back to port.

Court marshal me if you wanted, but I would refuse to attack an alert KM BB in bright sunny conditions, with a 2nd BB providing supporting fire - its a suicide mission with zero hope of success. And don't ask me to suppress AAA with biplane with pair of 0.303s under same condition (clear sunny skies) - you'd never be able to sight in on the target before you would need to take evasive action to avoid hitting it, while under fire from numerous AAA guns with far greater reach and sighting mechanism would be shooting back

 

[MikeMeech]

In contrast, when dozen Albacores attacked Tirpitz in excellent visibility, Tirpitz first salvo downed the closest Apple core making that hammer & anvil attack. She then shifted to the 2nd Albacore and dropped it with 2nd salvo. (well, may be a little hyperbole in there, but German BB shot down the closest 2 in rapid succession as they commenced their runs). The 3rd and 4th Apple cores hastily dropped their torpedoes and beat it back to Victorious. Tirpitz easily evaded the torpedoes and made it back to port.

Court marshal me if you wanted, but I would refuse to attack an alert KM BB in bright sunny conditions, with a 2nd BB providing supporting fire - its a suicide mission with zero hope of success. And don't ask me to suppress AAA with biplane with pair of 0.303s under same condition (clear sunny skies) - you'd never be able to sight in on the target before you would need to take evasive action to avoid hitting it, while under fire from numerous AAA guns with far greater reach and sighting mechanism would be shooting back

Hi
Some more detail of the 1942 attack on the Tirpitz by Albacores from HMS Victorious, which was providing deep cover for convoy PQ12, can be found on pages 99-100 of John Winton's book 'Find, Fix and Strike!', the reported effect on Hitler and Tirpitz operations is of interest:

Mike