Insight into the magnitude of forces involved in dogfights during WW2

drgondog · Feb 10, 2008

Soren said:
Does anyone have an exact number on how many Allied pilots wore the G-suit ?

The 355th received full supply in October 1944 to start of November and used them on all missions forward. The 4th tried the water filled version on a limited basis in April 1944, liked the benefit but didn't like the water aspect. They got theirs along with 56th, 361st and 479th at the same time the 355th got theirs. I think the 65th FW was first (all the above) but all 8th FC had them in November.

So, multiply approximately 100 fighter pilots by 15 Fighter groups to get 8th AF FC suit wearers at any one time, although only 70% flying on a given day in late 1944. I don't know when the 9th, 12th and 15th Fighter Groups got them - or RAF and RCAF... Real short on PTO knowledge here.

My father and three others 'pioneered' them in mid October for 355th. He spoke very highly of them in contrast to pre G suit and felt he was good for 6+ as contrast to 4-5(max) w/o G suit.

drgondog · Feb 10, 2008

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I also agree that a tilt seat will make it easier but I would still like to see actual proof that it cancels out a g-suit.

It just won't cancel out a G suit - which is why F-16 and F-15 and F22 all have both reclined seats AND G suits for pilot. I do believe the add't recline slant on an Fw 190 probably helped a little. I think the 51/47 and 38 seats had about a 15-20 degree slope from headrest to butt location.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 10, 2008

Interesting stuff Bill! The early British ones did work with water - Pb nailed it about the company in Toronto. I could tell you first hand the difference it makes.

Soren · Feb 10, 2008

Excellent info Bill, thank you very much!

FLYBOYJ · Feb 10, 2008

As we've been discussing this I just noticed I had this sitting on my desk!

Right after the T-33 flight were we "tried out" the g suits. I think we were only pulling about 4 Gs. the suit helped but it still felt like I spent an afternoon working out with weights, and back then I was in real great shape, about 15 pounds less than I am today.

Soren · Feb 10, 2008

The tilted seat + the heightened footrests is what leads me to the conclusion that this about cancels out the advantage of the early Berger suit. The raising of your legs I know will help allot plus the fact that it allows you to further increase the pitch of your own body.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 10, 2008

Soren said:
The tilted seat + the heightened footrests is what leads me to the conclusion that this about cancels out the advantage of the early Berger suit. The raising of your legs I know will help allot plus the fact that it allows you to further increase the pitch of your own body.

Believe what you want Soren, the Berger suit worked very similar to today's suits and unless the bulk of Luftwaffe pilots were either in super condition or 30 to 40 pounds overweight (The two body types that could actually take high g forces well) a 25 degree pitch seat is not going to have an advantage over a g suit, even a Berger - if they weren't effective the AAF wouldn't of pushed their use.

Soren · Feb 11, 2008

Thx for that back handed remark.

I never questioned the effectiveness of the G-suit, however the effectiveness of the early G-suit I don't believe to be much more effective than the tilted seat heightened footrests. There's no doubt that wearing a G-suit is an advantage, never claimed otherwise, but a tilted seat heightened footrests is also an advantage. Having both would've been the best.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 11, 2008

Soren said:
Thx for that back handed remark.

Sorry Soren, wasn't meant to come out that way...

Soren · Feb 11, 2008

No worries.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 11, 2008

drgondog said:
It just won't cancel out a G suit - which is why F-16 and F-15 and F22 all have both reclined seats AND G suits for pilot. I do believe the add't recline slant on an Fw 190 probably helped a little. I think the 51/47 and 38 seats had about a 15-20 degree slope from headrest to butt location.

I agree, that is what I am getting at.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 11, 2008

Soren said:
Thx for that back handed remark.

I never questioned the effectiveness of the G-suit, however the effectiveness of the early G-suit I don't believe to be much more effective than the tilted seat heightened footrests. There's no doubt that wearing a G-suit is an advantage, never claimed otherwise, but a tilted seat heightened footrests is also an advantage. Having both would've been the best.

But how is it an advantage over the early G-Suits. I dont buy it.

Until I see proof it is nothing more than an opinion to me. Ang this is not supposed to be an insult or a back handed remark to you either Soren so please dont take it that way.

Soren · Feb 12, 2008

I never claimed the tilted seat heightened footrests to be an advantage over the G-suit, never. Both were advantages, a means of delaying black outs. Hence why modern fighters feature both.

What I've been saying from the start is that the tilted seat + heightened footrests probably cancels out the advantage given by the early berger G-suit, that's all, both were advantages. The chart I provided demonstrates a ~1G improvement in tolerance with 25 degree's of tilt, and with your feat raised aswell this would've been increase to the same degree I believe, which means a 1.5 to 2G improvement in tolerance, the same as the early Berger G-suit.

Soren · Feb 12, 2008

Anyway I added some more a/c;

Bf-109G-2 Max G at 112 m/s (400 km/h): 7.49 G
A6M5 Max G at 112 m/s (400 km/h): 9.61 G !! (Holy moly! )
FW-190 A-5 Max G at 112 m/s (400 km/h): 5.52 G
F4U-4 Max G at 112 m/s (400 km/h): 5.49 G ( At 6,000 kg weight)
F6F-5 Max G at 112 m/s (400 km/h): 6.5 G

I think it's a pretty good thing that the Zero had heavy stick forces at high speeds!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 12, 2008

Soren said:
I never claimed the tilted seat heightened footrests to be an advantage over the G-suit, never. Both were advantages, a means of delaying black outs. Hence why modern fighters feature both.

Okay then I ask again, how does it cancel out the G-Suit?

Soren · Feb 12, 2008

By delivering roughly the same increase in G tolerance as the early Berger suit. Against the modern G-suit's there's no contest.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 12, 2008

Soren said:
By delivering roughly the same increase in G tolerance as the early Berger suit. Against the modern G-suit's there's no contest.

I think you're missing the point that the Berger suit will do about the same as a modern suit. The only real improvement I find over G suits in the past 60 years is construction material and comfort. Bottom line a 25 or 30 degree seat pitch WILL NOT be as effective as a G suit, even if we speak in terms of WW2...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 12, 2008

Soren said:
By delivering roughly the same increase in G tolerance as the early Berger suit. Against the modern G-suit's there's no contest.

Proof please?

Soren · Feb 12, 2008

The early G-suit delivered about a 1.5 - 2 G improvement to tolerance, and so did the heightened footrest + tilted seat according to the chart I presented, that's the proof Adler.

I severely doubt that the Berger suit was as effective as modern G suits, infact I know it isn't.

Soren · Feb 12, 2008

Art Friedler in his P-51D also failed to follow a FW190A in a couple of the tight pull outs because he greyed out, the German pilot being able pull more G's and get away.

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