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- #21
Komet
Airman
That is very interesting. Do you have any more information on this autopilot and where the controls for it would be mounted? How would you set the course to be flown by it in this aircraft?
Instrument panel of the Me262B1a/U1
- Thread starter Komet
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I agree the size of the PFK-f3 can be larger if compared to the f2 but the basic points for the four screws and the diameter of the rear part of the indicator case are the same allowing to attach it to the panel, no matter of the plane variant. However the f2 was used neither for the A nor B variant of the Me 262 IIRC.
For the reason I still believe it is the same as we may see below. Its large appearance is caused byt the light , shadow and the angle the pic was taken with.If you compare the guage diameter to the Variometer( on right of the Artificial Horizont ) it is not that large.
For the reason I still believe it is the same as we may see below. Its large appearance is caused byt the light , shadow and the angle the pic was taken with.If you compare the guage diameter to the Variometer( on right of the Artificial Horizont ) it is not that large.
The controles for the k22 autopilot was all integritet in the yoke,(the KG13R) the on off switch and e rocker switch for altering the heading left/right with two steps, a one deg/sec and two deg/sec. The rocker switch was connected to the heading motor that were driving the heading bug on the compas through a flexible shaft.
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- #24
Komet
Airman
You may be right but I have my doubts the -f3 could physically fit in the standard cut out on the blind flying panel - which is the same panel as in the Bf109K I believe.
The clue may be in the post from mig2830 where he says the night fighter 262 had the f3 installed as it was equipped with the K22 autopilot and used outputs of that to send corrections to the f3 unit.
I'm guessing the f3 unit was the larger size due to the extra coupling hardware needed or maybe just to differentiate it from the non autopilot setup. I think the f3 was only used in the 262B.
I include a photo of a PFK-f2 next to the panel of the 262B night fighter. It would be swallowed up by the cut out.
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- #25
Komet
Airman
Hi mig2830,
Thanks for the info - very sophisticated setup!
I may be asking for the impossible here but do you know of any photo that shows the KG13R with the autopilot controls/switches installed?
Is this switch the Fl 22567 or something else?
Certainly you may be right too. However the image of the Me 262B you posted on the previous page and the copy of it I have in a book for the kite clearly shows the the bottom edge of the indicator panel was a straight line but not , let's say "bulged" at the area where the f3 was installed. What is more there is still a lot of the open space between the right edge of the f3 and the indicator AFN2. Also there is some free space at its top between the guage and the artificial horizont. And the same can be noticed at the bottom edge of the compass and the bottom edge of the indicateor panel. All that indicates thet the diameter of the f3 wasn't that large you believe. Anyway I haven't seen any other images of the cockpit of the Me 262B variant that could confirm that there was used an indicator of the larger diameter than that the one used for the A version.
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- #27
Komet
Airman
Thanks Wurger,
And yes that is the problem. There are no other photos that are known to exist.
It's not a straightforward subject as we know!
Hi a few comments here, the item list for the ME262B-1a/U1 show:
The relay in the compass is a output, that the K22 uses for correcting the heading ref inside the autopilot.
And finaly I have attached som photos of the KG13R, on the first you see the heading switch and the second the on/off switch below the R/T botton.
For the all weather fighter ME262 the K22 autopilot was also pressent
| V52 | Führertochterkompass mit relais für kursmotor KT/f3 m. | FL 23338 |
The relay in the compass is a output, that the K22 uses for correcting the heading ref inside the autopilot.
And finaly I have attached som photos of the KG13R, on the first you see the heading switch and the second the on/off switch below the R/T botton.
For the all weather fighter ME262 the K22 autopilot was also pressent
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- #29
Komet
Airman
That is fantastic!
I had no idea where the controls were for the autopilot and that setup is way ahead of its time. And so the switch sends a signal to the KT/f3 m which sets the desired course the output of which goes to the K22 autopilot which turns the aircraft relative to the remote compass.
And now I know the exact Fühertochterkompass is the KT/f3. Will I ever find one!?
And the photos are amazing- I even see an original box!
Thanks again.
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- #30
Komet
Airman
A photo of my panel that has the blind flying panel with a straight bottom edge and the bigger compass opening. I'm hoping this is close to accurate.
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Humm ... all the indicator there aren't the German divices. It looks like the orginal panel was just adjusted to the new indicators only. I have to check on the pic again.
In these images it can be noticed that the bottom line was stright rather ...
the pic source: ME-262A-1 W/N 111711 "Old 711" in detail / Luftwaffe Library / Forums - Axis and Allies Paintworks
OK. I have examined the pic posted by Komet and have to say that the seen bottom line looks the same like you said. So it looks like the panel got the polyline edge in order to accomodate the slightly larger PFK-f3 radio compass. What is more the A-1a of the NASM had it with the bottom rounded part for the large indicator.
the source: the net.
Have you considered e-mailing the South African Museum and asking for some photos of the cockpits?
ditsong.org.za
Museum of Military History
Amalgamation of eight museums, seven in Tshwane and one in Johannesburg
ditsong.org.za
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- #34
Komet
Airman
When I said straight I actually meant it wasn't curved.
I had a good look at the South African panel and I suspected it was original but couldn't be sure, so thanks for confirming that.
So to me it looked like the bottom edge was made up of three straight lines. The section under the compass level and either side of that coming down from the sides to meet at a 5° angle. It doesn't really look curved - what do you think?
That is how my panel was made - I don't have the panel with me to take a better photo but will when I visit in another 10 days or so.
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- #35
Komet
Airman
Interesting!
So there is an A-1 with the larger compass so perhaps this is the all weather variant mig2830 was mentioning?
It is not sure. There is not too many pics showing the twe-seater variant of the Schwalbe especially its cockpit. At the end of the war many manufacturers could abandon the RLM requirement. IMHO it would be nice to find the dimensions of the early and late types of the radio-compass. In the image we started with the bottom edge has the same shape as the one of the South African panel. Although the compass looks like the large one, there is a lot of the free space all around the indicator. What is more the distance from the bottom edge of the guage to the bottom edge of the panel seems to be slightly larger than for the South African panel with the artificial horizont installed there instead of the compass.
In post #32 the last cockpit photo is a all weather fighter with the K22 autopilot. Also you see the simplified engine instrument arrangement that was late war layout. The gunsite is not the Revi EZ42 that would have been the case by the end of the war production. EZ42 was standart by then.
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- #38
Komet
Airman
That makes sense. Was the EZ42 gyro gunsight standard in the Me262B1a/U1 or at least listed as standard. Also was it equipped with the FuG 16 ZS in the rear seat or some other version of this radio? It also looks from the photos that the South African 262 has the correct KG13R with the autopilot controls?
I also note the ammunition counter is missing replaced by one switch. I had heard that the counter was deleted from some of these night fighters.
A big ask here but do you have a complete component list for the Me262B1a/U1 ?
Or perhaps at least a limited list of the panel instruments?
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- #39
Komet
Airman
The EZ42 was not standard production. It is believed only around 200 units may have been built and they were still being tested in FW190, ME262, DO335 aircraft at wars end. In the last 30+ years I've only seen four or five photos with the EZ42 installed.
The EZ42 wasn't magic, it computed lead but needed a long stable flight path to do it. e.g. ME262 vs a bomber formation when the target did not move around. It was useless in a fighter vs fighter scenario.
EZ42 being tested by Messerschmitt, March 45.
EZ42 in White 1 found at Innsbruck, May 45
The EZ42 wasn't magic, it computed lead but needed a long stable flight path to do it. e.g. ME262 vs a bomber formation when the target did not move around. It was useless in a fighter vs fighter scenario.
EZ42 being tested by Messerschmitt, March 45.
EZ42 in White 1 found at Innsbruck, May 45
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