Intro and Havoc ID needed.

[Chris Werb]

Hi. My name is as my user name. I'm 59 and work in IT for the NHS here in Orkney. I'm involved with the museum near my home at HMS Tern / RNAS Twatt which is most known as the wartime home of 771 Squadron RNAS, a Fleet Requirements Unit which operated quite an array of aircraft. I would like someone to ID this one for me. I think it is a Havoc I, but, if correct, this model had a plethora of variations and I was hoping experts here could confirm or correct my ID and hopefully provide some detail on which submarine this one is. Many thanks. Chris.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Havoc%20orkney&pageSize=30&media-records=records-with-media&style=image

 

[Wurger]

Welcome to the site.

Regarding the link I would say yes that's the Douglas DB-7/A-20 called by the RAF, Boston or Havoc.

 

[Wurger]

Hi. My name is as my user name. I'm 59 and work in IT for the NHS here in Orkney. I'm involved with the museum near my home at HMS Tern / RNAS Twatt which is most known as the wartime home of 771 Squadron RNAS, a Fleet Requirements Unit which operated quite an array of aircraft. I would like someone to ID this one for me. I think it is a Havoc I, but, if correct, this model had a plethora of variations and I was hoping experts here could confirm or correct my ID and hopefully provide some detail on which submarine this one is. Many thanks. Chris.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Havoc%20orkney&pageSize=30&media-records=records-with-media&style=image

The more I'm looking at the pics the more I'm convinced she is of the black colour. So if I'm right it would be the Boston with the overpainted glazing nose. In the case it could be the RAF Havoc. Also I have had a quick look at the list of the equipment of the no. 771 Squadron RNAS. They used the Havoc planes from December 1943 to the September 1944. But also the Boston II from November 1943 to August 1944 and the Boston III from February 1944 to August 1944. The kite has the "uniform" quite shabby what may indicate either the Boston II or the Havoc I. The Boston IIIs were servicing in the squadron for a quite short time relatively. As a result the camouflage shouldn't be so worn. To sume up .. either the Havoc I or Boston II.
Here is a shot of the Havoc I belonged to the no.771 Squadron in August 1943 believing the info found via the link below. IMHO she looks very similar.

the pic source: 771 Sq Havoc II AH507: request for info (or even speculation!)

 

[Wurger]

And here (DB-7) Havoc I of the no.23 Squadron without the overpainted glazing nose. The shape of it and the front windscreen of the pilot's cockpit looks the same as those details seen in the pics above.

the screenshots source:

View: https://youtu.be/jFKLTdb0iNw

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Different references have different ideas about the match ups and numbers of DB-7/DB-7A/DB-7B to Havoc I/II night fighters and Boston I/II/III bombers.

As of end June 1944 the RAF reports transferring 5 Havoc I, 1 Havoc II and 20 Boston III to the RN. The RAF Serial Registers say AH507 (Havoc II) AW396, BD117, 121, 122 (Havoc I) to RN, another reference says AE471 was transferred, it is listed as a Boston I in the Serial Registers.

W serials were Boston III, but some are marked Intruder and others Turbinlite in the Serial Registers, which list 15 transferred to the RN

 

[Gnomey]

Welcome.

 

[Chris Werb]

Thank you all very much! I am blown away by the quality and courtesy of the responses to my request. I can see you have access to primary sources, which is fantastic.

I spent a few hours going over Joe Baugher's pages on the aircraft describing its convoluted acquisition and conversion history with the RAF and RN. Joe is normally great and a marvellous resource, but his info is internally inconsistent in places on this subject (quite possibly because his primary sources were also inconsistent) and he has RN service of far shorter duration than we know was actually the case.

Baugher states that "some" re-engined Boston Is also Became Havoc Is but adding up from his serial numbers the number is at least 58 and could be as high as 71 whereas he only gives 56 serial numbers for conversions from Boston II airframes (181 total Havoc Is converted from both models). Baugher also alternates between stating the 12 gun noses were made by Boulton Paul and Martin Baker (or were there two different 12 gun noses?). Likewise, was the more vertical "fighter" windscreen for better gun sight use actually a thing or was it just that later DB-7 variants received a more streamlined one regardless of nose type (as almost all originally had forward firing guns)?

Did all fully glazed bomber and intruder airframes have the cheek gun blisters - at least one Boston (glazed nose) coded T8K lacked them? Is a Havoc NF II the same thing as a Havoc II and were the intruder and night fighter Havoc Is given designations in which case, if the Night fighter was NF I what was the intruder variant called?

Were Boston III Turnbinlite conversions referred to as Turbinlite Havocs or Bostons? Were these the additional Turbinlites specifically ordered converted for FAA FRU use as the Navy liked the big light in the nose for the FRU's roles as one (presumably tertiary) source claims? It would seem to dovetail with info given by Geoffrey above. My brain hurts!

Thank you very much for your assistance!

Chris

 

[Chris Werb]

Welcome.

Thank you!

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I have not read it but this site gives quiet a few details, A-20 Havoc References there does not appear to be forward gun pods in DB-7 or DB-7A. RAF designations were revised during the war, NF means night fighter.

The USAAF says DB-7 orders were 100 for France, all exported by end May 1940 (all arrived in France or French North Africa), then another for 170, of these 32 were exported to France by end June 1940, then 138 for Britain July 1940 to January 1941, but 16 of the French exports were diverted to Britain, giving 154 arrivals. The French order for 100 DB-7A had 1 crash in the US and not counted as produced, 99 exported for Britain December 1940 to May 1941, with 8 lost at sea.

The British imports report says 14 Boston I, 80 Boston II, 60 Havoc I (total 154) from June 1940 to February 1941, plus 91 Havoc II December 1940 to July 1941.

The RAF census says it issued serials/ordered 25 Boston I/II, 129 Havoc I (total 154 DB-7) The aircraft were initially called DB-7 in the Serial Registers, then after the RAF decided what to do with them and allocate names, the DB-7 was crossed out and Boston or Havoc written, except a few are ambiguous and others changed from Boston to Havoc or Havoc to Boston, the Form 78 aircraft cards will be needed to give a final answer. The RAF says it issued serials/ordered 100 Havoc II (DB-7A).

Using the Serial Registers the count is 21 Boston I/II, 133 Havoc I (total 154) and 100 Havoc II

16 aircraft from AE457 to AE472, French Exports diverted, 11 Boston I, 5 Havoc I
100 aircraft from AH430 to AH529, All Havoc II
23 aircraft from AW392 to AW414, with AW397 Boston I, rest Havoc I
4 aircraft from AX848 to AX851, 2 Boston I, 2 Havoc I
7 aircraft from AX910 to AX916, All Havoc I
10 aircraft from AX921 to AX930, 3 Boston I, 7 Havoc I
23 aircraft from BB890 to BB912, All Havoc I
17 aircraft from BD110 to BD126, All Havoc I
20 aircraft from BJ458 to BJ477, All Havoc I
17 aircraft from BJ485 to BJ501, All Havoc I
2 aircraft, BK882 and BK883, Havoc I
2 aircraft, BL227 and BL228, Havoc I
6 aircraft from BT460 to BT465, All Havoc I
1 aircraft BV203, Havoc I
2 aircraft, DG554 and DG555, Havoc I
4 aircraft from DK274 to DK277, All Boston I, all damaged beyond repair in transit.

The scattering of serial numbers is a good indication it took a while to decide what to do. The 781 DB-7B became Boston III, it looks like they had the gun pods.

6 Havoc I to RN, AW396, BD117, BD121, BD122, BL227, BL228
1 Havoc II to RN, AH507
2 Boston III marked Turbinlite, W8254, W8260
12 Boston III marked Intruder, W8259, W8281, W8290, W8298, W8304, W8305, W8314, W8318, W8335, W8345, W8358, W8386
20 Boston III to RN W8255, W8274, W8280, W8282, W8300, W8309, W8328, W8336, W8341, W8352, W8364, W8392, W8393, W8396, Z2160, Z2169, Z2184, Z2270, AL760, AL774

 

[Chris Werb]

I have not read it but this site gives quiet a few details, A-20 Havoc References there does not appear to be forward gun pods in DB-7 or DB-7A. RAF designations were revised during the war, NF means night fighter.

The USAAF says DB-7 orders were 100 for France, all exported by end May 1940 (all arrived in France or French North Africa), then another for 170, of these 32 were exported to France by end June 1940, then 138 for Britain July 1940 to January 1941, but 16 of the French exports were diverted to Britain, giving 154 arrivals. The French order for 100 DB-7A had 1 crash in the US and not counted as produced, 99 exported for Britain December 1940 to May 1941, with 8 lost at sea.

The British imports report says 14 Boston I, 80 Boston II, 60 Havoc I (total 154) from June 1940 to February 1941, plus 91 Havoc II December 1940 to July 1941.

The RAF census says it issued serials/ordered 25 Boston I/II, 129 Havoc I (total 154 DB-7) The aircraft were initially called DB-7 in the Serial Registers, then after the RAF decided what to do with them and allocate names, the DB-7 was crossed out and Boston or Havoc written, except a few are ambiguous and others changed from Boston to Havoc or Havoc to Boston, the Form 78 aircraft cards will be needed to give a final answer. The RAF says it issued serials/ordered 100 Havoc II (DB-7A).

Using the Serial Registers the count is 21 Boston I/II, 133 Havoc I (total 154) and 100 Havoc II

16 aircraft from AE457 to AE472, French Exports diverted, 11 Boston I, 5 Havoc I
100 aircraft from AH430 to AH529, All Havoc II
23 aircraft from AW392 to AW414, with AW397 Boston I, rest Havoc I
4 aircraft from AX848 to AX851, 2 Boston I, 2 Havoc I
7 aircraft from AX910 to AX916, All Havoc I
10 aircraft from AX921 to AX930, 3 Boston I, 7 Havoc I
23 aircraft from BB890 to BB912, All Havoc I
17 aircraft from BD110 to BD126, All Havoc I
20 aircraft from BJ458 to BJ477, All Havoc I
17 aircraft from BJ485 to BJ501, All Havoc I
2 aircraft, BK882 and BK883, Havoc I
2 aircraft, BL227 and BL228, Havoc I
6 aircraft from BT460 to BT465, All Havoc I
1 aircraft BV203, Havoc I
2 aircraft, DG554 and DG555, Havoc I
4 aircraft from DK274 to DK277, All Boston I, all damaged beyond repair in transit.

The scattering of serial numbers is a good indication it took a while to decide what to do. The 781 DB-7B became Boston III, it looks like they had the gun pods.

6 Havoc I to RN, AW396, BD117, BD121, BD122, BL227, BL228
1 Havoc II to RN, AH507
2 Boston III marked Turbinlite, W8254, W8260
12 Boston III marked Intruder, W8259, W8281, W8290, W8298, W8304, W8305, W8314, W8318, W8335, W8345, W8358, W8386
20 Boston III to RN W8255, W8274, W8280, W8282, W8300, W8309, W8328, W8336, W8341, W8352, W8364, W8392, W8393, W8396, Z2160, Z2169, Z2184, Z2270, AL760, AL774

Thank you very much, Geoffrey. Getting to primary sources is obviously better and something I had not managed to do. I find something quite curious in that aircraft above were designated as Havoc I or II from the outset, whereas my understanding is that they were converted upon arrival or thereafter with conversions from Boston II and re-engined Boston I at Burtonwood. Baugher gives more detail, tracing aircraft from their original configuration, order and intended recipient (in one case that changed from France to Belgium). There are anomalies, however as, for example, he has BD100 down as a Havoc I Turbinlite conversion, but it's not listed in any of the arriving batches and I suspect it's a typo of BD110. As someone stated earlier, sources contradict each other and some are internally contradictory. Primary sources, even when fragmentary, are the go to and the best we are going to get. The list of transfers to the RN in particular were very useful to me. It was also gret to see that multiple members here were involved in making a Havoc decal set that has no less than three 771 airframes on it and will keep me busy for many months. Thanks again, Geoffrey. Your help was/is much appreciated.