Is England....

[parsifal]

The great strength of the English is that they are a nation of foreign immigrants. its been going on since Roman times at least.

Now the real question is are they a better nation because of that forced melding. i think they are. the english have a greater sense of equality among their peoples and in their dealings than most nations. They fell down during the era of colonialism, but I see that as an anomaly in the national psyche, not the norm.

 

[stona]

oliver cromwell

A great man,but as the head ofwhat amounted to a military dictatorship,not a monarch. Lord Protector had a nice ring too it.

He is often listed as one of the most influential Britons of all time and yet he very nearly left for the New World. I wonder what influence he would have wielded there,unremarkable amongst many of similarly extreme puritan views.

Cheers

Steve

 

[yulzari]

Cromwell was offered the crown but declined it but the title of Lord Protector was a traditional title of a Regent during a monarch's minority and was succeeded by his son so the difference is questionable.

 

[stona]

Richard Cromwell's "Protectorate" looked a lot more like a pseudo monarchy than his father's.
Oliver Cromwell's power always stemmed ultimately from the Army. The Army never trusted Richard Cromwell and ultimately undid him.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Readie]

The great strength of the English is that they are a nation of foreign immigrants. its been going on since Roman times at least.

Now the real question is are they a better nation because of that forced melding. i think they are. the english have a greater sense of equality among their peoples and in their dealings than most nations. They fell down during the era of colonialism, but I see that as an anomaly in the national psyche, not the norm.

Being an Island race makes a people feel more united as well Michael. I wouldn't necessarily agree that 'we fell down' during the many years of the Empire...more spread our wings , culture and justice to other less civilised lands. Maybe we shouldn't have sent all the convicts to Australia / Tasmania. I would agree that being sent to Belgium would have a much greater punishment. Many free men made their way to the America's, Australia New Zealand making those countries what they are today. The upstarts in America wanted to go their own way but, you guys wisely stayed in the Commonwealth. We can sit in our rain washed foggy Island and reflect on our achievements and how much the English are admired around the globe....

 

[Lucky13]

....and drink tea with biscuits!

 

[The Basket]

Yes Ollie Cromwell. Republican. Military Dictator and Kingslayer. God botherer.
If Cromwell had lived longer or given his rule to a more stable succession then a very different England we would be

Empire was the height of England. The height of power. Rule Brittania. God save the Queen.

 

[parsifal]

The development of institutions and beliefs in equality and freedoms in different nations is intersting. I believe that the nations that enjoy the greatest freedoms and the greaterst beliefs in equality are those that derive their western heritage from the british model. But its hard to put your finger on the reasons why that might be.

In the case of the Americans, their believe in rights for all, that government is there to serve the people, that individual rights take precedence over the intersts of the state comes from their conflict with the british. The war of Independance, and the ACW were both crucibles that altered fundamentally how Americans think. The ACW is contentious, even today, but for outsiders at least it was a war that was fought (in the end) about the presevation of civil rights, the abhorrence of slavery as an institution, and the pre-eminence of the federal Government over States Rights, and (in contradiction to the issue about individual rights) all individual rights as well. The American road to liberty and equality was more violent than any of the other colonies, which might have something to do with the Americans affinity to gun ownership.

Im not as sure about Canada, and new Zealand has its own story, but for Australia, our early white european development is more subtle and evolutionary. We were born from the American reejection of penal colonists....we are the people that nobody wanted. We survived literally by our ability to share suffering and hardship. nobody, not even the Americans, suffered as much or as mide spread as the early Australians. Flogged, worked to death, denied basic human rights, we should have descended to barbarism. Instead it burned into our very psyche the need for egalitarianism....that each man is judged on his actions, not the colour of his skin or his ancestry (with the one huge failing of how we deal with Aboriginals). We also learned that no matter what, and whatever the cost, you dont abandon your mates. We are a bit stubborn and one eyed on that score.

Of course, this is the self image, and the view we project to the world. the reality is always less lofty than the self perception.

 

[stona]

Yes Ollie Cromwell. Republican. Military Dictator and Kingslayer. God botherer.

Which illustrates the contradictions in his character. His religious beliefs allowed him to become a regicide and republican. The latter not in any modern sense of the word.

A different England and Britain ,yes. Obviously no United Kingdom! It might have looked a lot politically like the United States 100 years or so later. It would have been very different religiously,despite the puritanism of the early settlers. There would have been no Catholic involvment in the English State. (There were two Catholic delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia).

The empire would still have existed. It would have been a British rather than English project much sooner. The Scots wouldn't have waited until 1707 to sign up and jump on the bandwagon,which incidentally they now want to get off

Cheers

Steve

 

[Readie]

'we are the people that nobody wanted'
Michael, remember the Johnny Cash song 'A boy named Sue'?
The Crown always had your ultimate welfare in mind making you a penal colony...no one calls you' Sue' now do they?
On another tact...can you explain the film 'Picnic at Hanging Rock'?

 

[Readie]

So, are we agreed that England is best?

 

[Lucky13]

Let me first check with my mates around here!

 

[Marcel]

So, are we agreed that England is best?

I would say England's best contribution to the world was Monty Python. And they were very smart to take a Dutch King.

 

[herman1rg]

Arthur: Old Woman!

The peasant turns around, revealing that he is in fact a man.

Man: Man!
Arthur: Man, sorry.... What knight lives in that castle over there?
Man: I'm thirty-seven!
Arthur: (suprised) What?
Man: I'm thirty-seven! I'm not old--
Arthur: Well I can't just call you "man"...
Man: Well you could say "Dennis"--
Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis!
Man: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?!
Arthur: I did say sorry about the "old woman", but from behind, you looked--
Man: Well I object to your...you automatically treat me like an inferior!
Arthur: Well I *am* king...
Man: Oh, king, eh, very nice. And 'ow'd you get that, eh?
(he reaches his destination and stops, dropping the cart)
By exploiting the workers! By 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma
which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.
If there's ever going to be any progress,--
Woman: Dennis! There's some lovely filth down 'ere!
(noticing Arthur) Oh! 'Ow'd'ja do?
Arthur: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, king of the Britons. Whose
castle is that?
Woman: King of the 'oo?
Arthur: King of the Britons.
Woman: 'Oo are the Britons?
Arthur: Well we all are! We are all Britons! And I am your king.
Woman: I didn't know we 'ad a king! I thought we were autonomous collective.
Man: (mad) You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship! A
self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
Woman: There you go, bringing class into it again...
Man: That's what it's all about! If only people would--
Arthur: Please, *please*, good people, I am in haste! WHO lives in that
castle?
Woman: No one lives there.
Arthur: Then who is your lord?
Woman: We don't have a lord!
Arthur: (spurised) What??
Man: I *told* you! We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We're taking
turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week--
Arthur: (uninterested) Yes...
Man: But all the decisions *of* that officer 'ave to be ratified at a
special bi-weekly meeting--
Arthur: (perturbed) Yes I see!
Man: By a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs--
Arthur: (mad) Be quiet!
Man: But by a two-thirds majority, in the case of more major--
Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET! I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman: "Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why
I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man: Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent
in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) Bloody PEASANT!
Man: Oh, what a giveaway! Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? That's
what I'm all about! Did you see 'im repressing me? You saw it,
didn't you?!

 

[The Basket]

Dutch king....I think Cromwell would have turned in his grave....if he had one.

 

[Clave]

Most countries are a mish-mash of one sort or another.

But of all the Northern Europeans, the English were by far the worst - bloody-minded, warlike, and stubborn... but enough of our good points... this is about the Normans, and as there are no Normans left, we can't be under occupation.

 

[Lucky13]

I'm still here, then again, I'm across the border!

Need to keep an eye on my ancestors investments, vikings and so on....

 

[razor1uk]

The Normans in modern UK, only really exist in family surnames lineages now.
Oliver went from Cavalry General, to becaming like Stalin as his power grew, luckely didn't he have some horrible disease by the end of his life?

My own anscestors came from all around the UK as far as I know, half of my family goes back to at least the middle 1600's, and are mostly English, but I have some Celtic from South Wales (Welsh Scots) the Scots of whom many generations before that, likely came over from Ireland. Some members of my family are researching and cross referencing a family tree together.

If anyone seen Braveheart (that largely fake historical recreation subversion of facts by Mel Gibson,) then apparently some of ancestors are all swinging by their necks right at the start.

 

[razor1uk]

Dual post, please remove as I don't have that option available, cheers Mods.

 

[yulzari]

Actually about 85% of the English genes are pre farming hunter gatherers who walked over when the last glacial advance retreated. The chaps in power come and go but the peasant always remains.