J2M Raiden Jack vs. P-38J

Discussion in 'Polls' started by Soundbreaker Welch?, Jan 28, 2009.

?

Which plane would outmatch the other?

  1. P-38J

    43.6%
  2. J2M Raiden Jack

    16.4%
  3. Equally matched

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. It depends on the Pilots

    40.0%
  5. :Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    Ok, maybe this could be interesting.

    Who do you think could win?
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    For any aircraft of near equal capability the outcome of a fight will depend on the tactical situation and pilot skill - same here.
     
  3. Fokker D21

    Fokker D21 Member

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    In comparison: P-38J vs J2M5

    The P-38J has a speed advantage (402 mph versus 382) and is problaby more manoeuvrable at low speeds. The J2M has a climb rate advantage (3838 ft/m vs 3076 ft/m). The J2M5 has more firepower (4 x 20 mm vs 1 x 20 mm and 4 x .50) but the P38 has everything in the nose and the J2M in the wings.

    In a fight in the vertical I would say the J2M wins.
    A low speed turning battle favors the P-38.
    In a boom and zoom anyone can win.
     
  4. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    I see it from a different perspective wrt low speed maneuverability.
    A low speed turning battle is much to the taste of the J2M, a dive zoom favour the P-38´s significantly better zoom climb.
     
  5. proton45

    proton45 Member

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    The P38 had the numbers...maybe not the type of answer you where looking for (lol), sorry... :)
     
  6. fly boy

    fly boy Member

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    i have never seen a jack
     
  7. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    Here's one, the only restored Raiden in a museum.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Pong

    Pong Active Member

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    Wow. Where is that museum?
     
  9. Thorlifter

    Thorlifter Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  10. Ivan1GFP

    Ivan1GFP Member

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    Both aircraft were seriously underrated for speed. The 371 mph typically quoted for a J2M was done with external tanks. TAIC test actually put the speed of this aircraft at 407 mph.

    - Ivan.
     
  11. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    I think it's at Chino Airport in California. Wish I could visit.
     
  12. RabidAlien

    RabidAlien Active Member

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    Agree with everyone who said "depends on pilot/situation"....but I voted for the P-38 just cuz I love that bird!
     
  13. Sweb

    Sweb Member

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    I read in a book - don't remember now - that the Japanese planes were in most ways superior to ours in performance. Robustness was our claim to fame and, of course, the Allies had some pretty remarkable machines with heavy firepower and range. The report was based upon Allied testing of captured planes that were returned to flying condition. One thing the Japanese could not do was produce the 100 octane fuels needed for their engines. The best they produced was 80. With 100 octane a couple types flew circles around all period Allied inventory during the Allied testing of them. The Hayate (Ki-84) in particular was the best of them. The Shiden came next. With 100 octane fuel the Ki-84 was faster than any Allied type, had an embarrassingly better ROC and with its combat flaps and airfoil out maneuvered all of its period counterparts and opponents. Because it was much lighter than its opponents it could literally firewall the throttle and take advantage in a fight or simply run away never to be caught by any other type except perhaps the H version of the P-51 which had some pretty good giddy-up. I remember reading it in one of the books I bought when building a 1/4 scale RC model of it. If the Japanese had the higher octane fuels the PTO might have turned out much differently than it did.
     
  14. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
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    I highly doubt it. Prolong the war, maybe, but change the outcome? No.
     
  15. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    There is no doubt that the Japanese produced some superior hardware however maintainability and interchangeability presented a problem though out the war and of course got worse later in the war. I think someone posted on here a narrative by a Japanese fighter pilot based in the Solomons complaining about the quality and maintainability of his aircraft.
     
  16. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    I think a P-47M could still beat the Hayate in speed. It could go over 500 miles per hour, one of the fastest fighters of the war.
     
  17. Ivan1GFP

    Ivan1GFP Member

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    I believe that there are quite a few misconceptions floating around here at the moment. I'll try to address a few (and hopefully get a little backup from those who have more actual involvement with aircraft than I do).

    The typical Japanese fuel during WW2 was spec'd at 92 octane. They did not do as the Germans did and have a lower octane (more easily ignited) fuel for starting the engines. A test of fuel taken from captured Japanese army aircraft gave numbers around 96 octane. Either way, a few Japanese army fighters were equipped with fuel coolers presumably to reduce the possibility of detonation.

    Fueling an aircraft with higher octane fuel doesn't necessarily improve performance. In most cases, it will probably perform worse without some timing adjustments to match the fuel. The higher octane fuel would allow higher compression or higher supercharger boost. Compression is not adjustable. Boost is, but I would hope that folks testing a captured foreign fighter would try to stick by whatever the manuals told them. From reading test reports, the TAIC folks did that. Also required with significantly higher octane fuels is a better ignition system. I doubt THAT would be redesigned to test a captured fighter.

    The Japanese had a strange way of stating aircraft performance which tended to underestimate a good condition late model aircraft in the field. The US tests of the Ki-84 actually pretty much matched the specs the Japanese arrived at in one of their less commonly quoted documents. Even then, 425 to 430 mph at 20,000 feet is not blazing fast for a fighter at the end of the war.

    Regarding climb performance and maneuverability, I believe that their climb performance was very good down low, but deteriorated badly as altitude increased. Maneuverability at low to medium speeds was good, but not necessarily as good at high speeds.

    Also, the descriptions I just gave are of aircraft at their peak performance. The Japanese had lots of trouble maintaining their manufacturing quality. I believe that is why planes such as the Ki-100 were so well rated. The peak numbers aren't great, but the aircraft is much more likely to perform as claimed by the manufacturer.

    Another factor is that production numbers are generally pretty low. Even major types such as the J2M and N1K only had a few hundred or a thousand produced.

    Keep in mind that this is basically my own interpretation after doing a LOT of reading, so please feel free to argue any points.

    - Ivan.
     
  18. Timppa

    Timppa Active Member

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    Couple of threads from other discussion forums about late Japanese fighter performance:

    Ki-84 report...USAAF test...

    ki84 speed????

    Busa from this latter thread is Japanese, he dug out some info that was generally not known.
     
  19. Ivan1GFP

    Ivan1GFP Member

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    Hi Timppa,

    The Japanese language table posted by 200th Sakagawa is actually what I am quoting from. For folks who are interested, I recommend you download the image and print it out full page. About 2/3 of the way down on the page, there is a line with maximum speeds. The third column quotes 689 kph (6100 meters) or 428 mph which is pretty close to what the US got with their test aircraft.

    I asked my wife to translate quite a lot of this page for me some time back. A lot of the numbers are recognisable and she gave me her interpretations before I told her what I thought they were. She isn't Japanese, but a lot of the writing is in Kanji which is about the same as written Chinese which she can read.

    - Ivan.
     
  20. Pong

    Pong Active Member

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    I agree with Evan. Even if they had the high octane fuel, there were more trained pilots in the allied carrier force. When the Battle of Santa Cruz happened, that was it. 400 of the 700 pilots that fought in Pearl Harbor were KIA. Yeah, the Japanese had some advanced planes but there were hardly any properly trained pilots to fly them.
     
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