Ju-290 debate - Flights to Manchuria etc

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Kiwikid, Oct 27, 2006.

  1. Kiwikid

    Kiwikid Member

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    A Luftwaffe sergeant interrogated by Americans G-2 intelligence at the end of the war disclosed the existence of Ju-290 flights to "Manchuria."

    According to that person these planes flew from Odessa on the Black Sea but after the fall of Stalingrad had to operate from Mielec in Poland. The airport in "Manchria" actually appears to be inner Mongolia at Ninghsia.

    Horst Zoeller at the Hugo Junkers Homepage advises these flights were flown by Ju-290 aircraft with civil markings (in private correspondence with me)

    The aircraft were especially modified with 23,800 Litre capacity for fuel and were stripped of armaments. I believe they may have also received the more powerful BMW 801G engines.

    Could anyone here please furnish information what their civil registrations were or the name of the luftwaffe sergeant who disclosed these flights to the US Army please ?
     
  2. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Civilian registraition markings for the Ju-290s us by FaGr. 5 and KG-200 for the supposed flights:

    9V+AK, 9V+IK, 9V+KK, T9+VK, T9+WK, T9+UK.

    The latter 3 were remarked as A3+BB, A3+CB, and A3+AB respectivly.

    Interesting note though:

    Baumgart who flew with the unit said that flights to Japan, Manchuria were discussed but never flown.

    Good book on this:

    KG-200 The Luftwaffe Most Secret Unit by Geofrey Thomas and Barry Ketley
     
  3. Kiwikid

    Kiwikid Member

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    DerAdlerIstGelandet wrote:

    DerAdlerIstGelandet, that is not the full list of Ju-290 operated by KG200. These appear to only include those flown on the Russian front and presumably with the KG200 J-290 staffel which Baumgart was familiar with.

    There were three or four seperate KG200 units known as codenames Olga, Clara, Tosca and Carmen (I am unsure whether they would be termed steffelen ?)

    9V was of course the earliest KG code. Later came the A3 codes. T9 codes applied on the eastern front. Application of codes to specific aircraft was highly confusing as the same code was often applied to two or three separate aircraft. As one was destroyed, another aircraft would take over the same code.

    In the instance of 9V-LK there appears to be an overlap suggesting two aircraft wore that code at the same time, but more likely the records are unclear and confused. One of the two may have worn an earlier code during the overlap period.

    KG200's 9V code existed prior to March 1944, but following this date all Ju-290 aircraft were handed over to KG200 from other Ju-290 operators including FAGr.5 at Mont de Marsan.

    It is interesting to note how many KG200 Ju-290s were shot down over the Atlantic presumably on clandestine missions between Europe and South America. Up until May 1943, the Brazillian airline LATI kept up a connection with Barcelona using Fw200 Condors and from Barcelona there were civil DLH flights to German occupied Europe (Barcelona-Munich route).

    Following ceassitation of LATI services, General Hans Studemann was recruited by Otto Skorzeny to form an 800 strong band of construction workers for the Abwher (later RSHA) to build an airstrip at Cordoba, Argentina which accepted Ju-290 and Ju390 flights from Europe.

    When I read your reply DerAdlerIstGelandet, I recalled that back in 2004 I had myself compiled a list of Ju-290 aircraft operating for KG200. That answers my above question about the three civil aircraft converted to fly to Ninghsia in China. I copy the list I made then from an old forgotten computer file of mine.


    T9+UK, (aka A3+AB), Feb 44 to Jun 44, missed on mission at Russian Front
    T9+VK, (aka A3+BB), Feb 44 to Apr 44, damaged during air raid at Finsterwalde, scrapped at Travemunde
    T9+WK, (aka A3+CB), Mar 44 to May 44, lost Russian front


    9V+AH (C/N J900158 ), Jun. 43 to Apr 45, shot down over Berlin by own anti aircraft fire
    9V+BH, Nov 43 to Aug 48, damaged on landing at Bernburg, probably not repaired
    9V+CH, (aka A3+AB after Jun 44), Nov. 43 to May 45, captured at Flensburg by RAF, later scrapped
    9V+DH (C/N J900166), Sep 43 to Apr 44, burnt-out at Bourges, France during bomb attack
    9V+DH (C/N J900170), Apr 44 to Apr 45, probably destroyed by air raid at Rechlin
    9V+EH, Dec 43 to Sep 44, DEUTSCHE LUFT HANSA, D-AITP, Sep 44 to Dec 44
    9V+FH, Dec 43 to Feb 44, shot down over Atlantic Ocean
    9V+FH (aka A3+OB), Mar 44 to May 45, UK Air Ministry Mai. 45 to 1946, handed over to RAF and scrapped 1949
    9V+GH, Dec 43 to Sep 44, DUETSCHE LUFT HANSA, D-AITQ, Oct 44 to Apr 45
    9V+HH, May 44 to Mar 45, damaged during air raid at Munich



    9V+BK (C/N J900157), May 43 to May 45, handed to RAF became AM57, May 45 to 1949, scrapped in England
    9V+CK, (C/N J900159) (aka 9V+CC), Jun. 43 to Nov.43, shot down over Atlantic Ocean
    9V+CK (C/N J900173), Jan. 44 to Dec 44, destroyed by bombs at Neuburg
    9V+DK (C/N J900161), Jul 43 to Dec 43, crashed during bad weather at Lesaca, Spain
    9V+DK, (C/N J900177) Dec 43 to Feb 44, shot down over Atlantic Ocean
    9V+EK (C/N J900178), Feb 44 to Sep 44, DEUTSCHE LUFT HANSA, D-AITR Oct 44 to May 45.
    9V+EK, (C/N J900162), (post Sep 44, aka 9V+GK), Aug. 43 to Apr.45, handed over to Allies at Salzburg, Austria
    9V+FK (C/N J900179), Jan. 44 to Feb.44, destroyed during air raid at Rechlin
    9V+FK (C/N J900168,), Oct 43 to Nov 43, crashed on take off at at Mont de Marsan
    9V+FK (C/N J900188), Mar 44 to May 44, “missing” during Atlantic mission
    9V+FK (C/N J900193), (aka A3+FK), May 44 to Apr 45, handed over to USAAF and scrapped (thought to have flown clandestine mission from Prague to Barcelona 26/27 April 1945)
    9V+GK (C/N J900181), Apr. 44 to Aug 44, destroyed during air raid at Dessau
    9V+HK, Mar 44 to Apr 45, destroyed during air raid at Rechlin
    9V+KK (C/N J900169), Oct 43 to Apr 44, destroyed during air raid at Finsterwalde
    9V+KK (C/N J900189), Apr 44 to Sep 44, damaged during air raid
    9V+LK (C/N J900195), Jun 44 to Sep 44, destroyed during air raid at Brunntal
    9V+LK (C/N J900187), Apr 44 to May 45, crashed near Llanes, northern Spain
    9V+MK, (aka A3+PB), May 44 to Feb 45, crashed on landing at Hildesheim

    Odball codes:

    9V+AB, Apr. 44 to Sep.44, damaged during air raid at Brunntal, later blown up.
    A3+HB, Sep. 43 to May 45, modified to A7 version Jul 44, captured in Munich, USAF # FE3400, May 45, flown to USA and later scrapped

    I myself do not know the Constructor's number nor fuselage code for Hitler's Ju-290 A-6 and would appreciate any knowlegable answers.:rolleyes:

    Incidentally about Baumgart's comments, Reichs armaments Minister Albert Speer noted in his own memoirs that flights to Japan ("Manchuria") were flown by (correction Junkers) civil test pilots and not millitary crews. Hence it is perfectly understandable that Baumgart had no knowledge of KG200 operating such flights.

    We have a modern parallel when the CIA operated military missions from Laos during the Vietnam War.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the 9V code was from the Stab, 1st and 2nd Staffels of FAGr 5 in the year of 1943 till the second breakup of the mysterious unit with Ju 290-s being transferred over to KG 200 with the same code till filed maintenance removed the 9V and added their own. for propanganda purposes the 9V was kept in the log books to prove that FAGr 5 was still operating with the craft through 1945. Reality proved otherwise as the outfit slowly fizzled out but still flew some very intersting ops and finally several Ar 234 jets felw with what once was a very proud small gruppe of Recee Veterans. I have quite a bit of coverage on FAGR 5 and inerstly await their book published by the remaining vets of the unit. Also a veteran friend that served in a very unkwon unit within KG 200 which I will not share until his passing upon his wishes. May I recommend a full coverage book by Dipl-Ing Karl Kössler and Günter Ott which covers the Ju 90/290 and 390 craft. without it in your datbase you can go no further except to specualte. Sadly the book is out of print and according to a letter to me back in June 2002 will never be re-published

    E ~
     
  5. Kiwikid

    Kiwikid Member

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    Thanks for clearing up about early use of the 9V codes.

    Do you recall the exact title of the book by Dipl-Ing Karl Kössler and Günter Ott ?
     
  6. Kiwikid

    Kiwikid Member

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    In any regards, the aircraft which performed so called flights to Manchuria were modified to civil standards in October 1944 at Templehoff airport, Berlin. They were the three which were stripped of armaments and given larger fuel tanks.

    The original claims about flights to Manchuria specified flights from Odessa which fell at the begining of 1943, so these modified aircraft not could have been involved with the flights to Ninghsia via Odessa.

    In which case the T9+VK, T9+UK and T9+WK aircraft may have been the original Manchurian candidates.

    D-AITR Bayern arrived at Barcelona on a flight from Flensberg evacuating file records of signals to U-boats and some SFM 43 Krokodil cypher machines. It was heavily laden. It arrived overhead at 3:28am on a foggy night and landed with difficulty at 3:40am.

    According to one Herr Baires from the Telmo Bario of Spain it's tail wheel snapped under the weight carried and the aircraft drifted left from the runway through two ditches, smashing the left undercarriage and coming to rest.

    By morning, British spies could clearly see it lying there and this resulted in forceful protests to Spain by the Allies. It lay for two years until salvaged and rebuilt. This was the aircraft which eventually flew again for the Spanish Air Force... Not Hitler's Ju-290 A-6 plane.
     
  7. Kiwikid

    Kiwikid Member

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    I went back to some old handwritten notes which I took from an unrecorded library book back in the Nineties. That book claimed the aircraft which flew Odessa to Ninghsia were C/N J900182 to J900184.

    If correct these are the aircraftwhich were marked T9+VK, T9+UK and T9+WK, so DerAdlerIstGelandet does seem to have the right aircraft.
     
  8. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Kiwikid you are absolutely right. In my KG-200 book there are more Ju-290s as well.

    As for the Hitler flight the civilian registered aircraft that was to be used by Hitler was a Ju-290A-5 W.Nr. 110178 with markings of D-AITR and given the Lufthansa name Bayern. There is a picture of the actual orders for the flight and the passenger manifest to fly Hitler and several others to Barcelona. The flight never happened though.

    The flight was to happen on 26 April 1945 at 2000. The passenger manifest was

    Der Fuehrer
    Dr. Goebbels
    Frau Goebbels und Kinder (6)
    Reichsleiter Bormann
    SS-Gruppen Fuehrer Mueller
    SS Gruppen Fuehrer Fegelein
    General der Infanterie Burgdorf
    Botschafter zbV Hewel
    SS-Oberstubf. Betz
    SS-Stubf. Dr. Sutmpfegger
    SS-Hauptstuf. Gross
    Frl. Braun
    Frl. Manzialy

    and a 4 man Commando security unit.
     
  9. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    You should check out the book that I am talking about. It is by far the most informative book on the KG-200 that I have ever seen.
     
  10. mitchtanz

    mitchtanz New Member

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  11. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    from "KG 200: The True Story" by P.W. Stahl......
     

    Attached Files:

  12. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Interesting stuff there...
     
  13. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    The Ju290A-6 registration by my documents was werk# 2900185 and letters KR+LP
     
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