Ju88 is Luftwaffe's Mosquito

[wiking85]

Ju88 v1

What if the Luftwaffe decided for a Ju88 that was built for speed, much like the de Havilland Mosquito? By this I mean they stay truer to the V1 prototype by having no defensive armament like the Mosquito, 2 crew members, a streamlined nose without glazed glass that reduced speed, no dive bombing requirement, and a 1000kg bomb load in its front bomb bay with 500kg secondary bomb bay for either more fuel or bombs. It would be about the same weight as the Mosquito empty, which is around 6000kg, and about the same equipped, which is about 8000kg. The production variant of the Ju88A1 historical was nearly 12,000kg equipped, so this version of the Ju88 would be much lighter, more aerodynamic, and thus faster.

This aircraft would not be made out of wood, but would embody much of the same idea of the Mosquito bomber for its design principles.

Mosquito:

 

[GregP]

The Ju-88 was quite versatile and could have been optimized for speed ... but wasn't.

If it had been, what missions that it fulfilled in the real war might not have been fulfilled with the modified aircraft, and what mission or missions do you envision for the faster Ju-88 that it didn't do in real life?

 

[fastmongrel]

The Ju88 would need a fair bit more power it was about 10 to 20% bigger all round with about 130 sq foot more wing area. I dont know how much more power it would need but what engines were available for it to match the Mossies speed.

 

[Kryten]

Ju88 was a lot heavier?

 

[Tante Ju]

Mosquito was the RAF's Ju 88 and not vica versa.... there was not much difference, in 1940 the Ju 88 was almost as fast as the mainstay RAF fighter Hurricane.. Mosquito itself was same case in 1943, almost as fast - but not as fast - as Fw 190A/Me 109G.

 

[wiking85]

The Ju-88 was quite versatile and could have been optimized for speed ... but wasn't.

If it had been, what missions that it fulfilled in the real war might not have been fulfilled with the modified aircraft, and what mission or missions do you envision for the faster Ju-88 that it didn't do in real life?

There are no additional missions that this version would be asked to do beyond what was asked of it historically.
Instead it would do those missions better by being more survivable. Of course it would not have been asked to dive bomb and in daylight it couldn't carry drag inducing external ordnance.

The Ju88 would need a fair bit more power it was about 10 to 20% bigger all round with about 130 sq foot more wing area. I dont know how much more power it would need but what engines were available for it to match the Mossies speed.

In 1942 the Mossie had about 1400HP per engine, so the Luftwaffe could have given it either the DB603 or 605, both of which were in the 1700HP range. Otherwise its the roughly similar Jumo 211, which by 1942 had about 1400HP.

In 1939-40 there was the Jumo 211 and Db601 with 1200HP and in 1941 both had boosted to the 1350HP range.

Mosquito was the RAF's Ju 88 and not vica versa.... there was not much difference, in 1940 the Ju 88 was almost as fast as the mainstay RAF fighter Hurricane.. Mosquito itself was same case in 1943, almost as fast - but not as fast - as Fw 190A/Me 109G.

Semantically yes, the Ju88 was first, so the Mosquito would technically be the British speed bomber, but to be fair the Mossie started its design before the Ju88 had entered service and was still in dive bombing modification phase.
What I am referring to is a Ju88 that was optimized for speed and therefore survivability like the Mosquito, which then would mean it could be faster than the Hurricane.

Ju88 was a lot heavier?

Yep, 4 metric tons heavier when loaded.

 

[Tante Ju]

IMHO the 88 can be easily modified to this concept, the airfame is actually very very small and narrow. The Ju 88S type was in fact designed around this concept (nearly unarmed, save for a single MG 131) high speed bomber doing about 400 mph IIRC. OTOH I do not believe in pure high speed bombers - they do get obsolate rather fast.

 

[Shortround6]

In 1942 the Mossie had about 1400HP per engine, so the Luftwaffe could have given it either the DB603 or 605, both of which were in the 1700HP range. Otherwise its the roughly similar Jumo 211, which by 1942 had about 1400HP.

In 1939-40 there was the Jumo 211 and Db601 with 1200HP and in 1941 both had boosted to the 1350HP range.

The Ju 88 already used the most powerful Jumo 211's available at the time. The DB 603 or 605 in the 1700hp range do not show up until 1943 and 1944 respectively. The 1300-1400hp Jumo 211 and DB 601s are new versions of the engines and not old ones with the boost limit changed. This does tend to limit engine availability as ALL new aircraft are competing for the new engines, as in if you want DB601Es in your Ju 88 how many 109s or other aircraft do not get them?

The British were able to keep some aircraft/engines in service (for combat duties) for at least a few months if not longer by increasing the boost limit without requiring a new mark of engine for improved performance.

 

[wiking85]

The Ju 88 already used the most powerful Jumo 211's available at the time. The DB 603 or 605 in the 1700hp range do not show up until 1943 and 1944 respectively. The 1300-1400hp Jumo 211 and DB 601s are new versions of the engines and not old ones with the boost limit changed. This does tend to limit engine availability as ALL new aircraft are competing for the new engines, as in if you want DB601Es in your Ju 88 how many 109s or other aircraft do not get them?

The British were able to keep some aircraft/engines in service (for combat duties) for at least a few months if not longer by increasing the boost limit without requiring a new mark of engine for improved performance.

Increasing boost limit is an option to consider.
As to the rest: the DB603 appeared in production in May 1942 historically, with the DB605 not long after that, but you're right it was a lower HP version.
The Jumo 211 and DB601 would used used with a lighter, more aerodynamic version of the Ju88, so it would be faster for the same HP. Now for the DB601s and to a degree the DB603, the low number available had to do with priorities. Jumo got extra funding to expand their factories pre-war, but Daimler-Benz did not for some reason, probably politics, so had fewer available when the war broke out. From what I can tell the DBs had lower fuel consumption than the Jumos and more development potential plus earlier, higher HP, so would have been better to expand production of pre-war than the Jumos.

Also the DB603 from sources that Dave Bender has posted had its funding cancelled in 1937-1940 only to have it restored in 1940, which resulted in it being delayed for production until 1942. Had it been funded by the military (limited private development continued) continuously through 1937-40 its conceivable that it could have entered mass production in 1941 and been available in numbers from then on, especially if Daimler production is favored over Jumo.

 

[riacrato]

A German Mosquito doesn't need to be as fast as a British Mosquito. It will be facing less capable opposition until mid 1943 except for maybe in the Meds. I'd say a fast bomber of ~600-620 km/h top speed would be fast enough (loaded) to make interception extremely difficult for its opposition in the east and North Africa.

 

[Tante Ju]

Its called Me 410 then..

 

[Juha]

Mosquito was the RAF's Ju 88 and not vica versa.... there was not much difference, in 1940 the Ju 88 was almost as fast as the mainstay RAF fighter Hurricane.. Mosquito itself was same case in 1943, almost as fast - but not as fast - as Fw 190A/Me 109G.

I disagree with that, the idea behind Mossie was a bit different and Ju 88As suffered as bad if not worse as Do 17Zs and He 111Hs and Ps during the BoB and I don't recall any fundamental difference in their use but near the end of the BoB. And Mossie bombers began operating in mid-42.

Juha

 

[Juha]

IMHO the 88 can be easily modified to this concept, the airfame is actually very very small and narrow. The Ju 88S type was in fact designed around this concept (nearly unarmed, save for a single MG 131) high speed bomber doing about 400 mph IIRC. OTOH I do not believe in pure high speed bombers - they do get obsolate rather fast.

Yes, but only in late 43 IIRC and with very limited production run but I agree that it could have been done earlier after all at least part of Ju 88S production utilized modified Ju 88A airframes.

Juha

 

[wiking85]

A German Mosquito doesn't need to be as fast as a British Mosquito. It will be facing less capable opposition until mid 1943 except for maybe in the Meds. I'd say a fast bomber of ~600-620 km/h top speed would be fast enough (loaded) to make interception extremely difficult for its opposition in the east and North Africa.

620km/h is about about 390mph. I doubt the Ju88 without wooden construction could be as fast as the Mosquito, but with its smaller internal bomb bay it could get close.

So the Ju88S without the rear machine gun and third crew member in 1939 and lack of modifications for dive bombing that upped the Ju88's weight would satisfy both of us.

Its called Me 410 then..

Yeah, pretty similar in performance, but in 1939 instead of late 1943.

 

[nuuumannn]

In terms of the variety of roles each type carried out, the Ju 88 and Mossie have this in common, but conceptually they are totally different. The Mosquito was conceived as a high speed unarmed bomber built from strategic materials. The Ju 88 was not either of these things.

 

[Shortround6]

Increasing the boost is NOT an option for the Germans, at least not much of one. Their fuel will not allow it.

Mr Bender tends to ignore the fact that what the DB engineers learned while developing the 601/605 series was applied to the 603. a 1941 production version of the 603 would have been of rather lower power than the later version. That or you double the (or more) the R&D budget. Getting an engine with a 180mm stroke to run faster (more rpm) than an engine with a 160mm stroke is not easy. Cooling a 162mm dia. piston and cylinder is harder than cooling a 150mm one. How much trouble did the DB engineers have with burned pistons on the 605 at 1.42 ATA pressure? A 1940-41 version could very well be running at 2400rpm instead of 2700rpm and at 1.3 ATA instead of 1.42. While this may mean a 1400-1500hp engine instead of a 1750hp engine it would also be a a small decrease in weight. There would be a performance increase over historical engines but not the increase the later engines would bring.

 

[stona]

The Mosquito was conceived as a high speed unarmed bomber built from strategic materials.

NON-strategic,but I know that's what you meant

The Germans never did match the Mosquito did they. I saw a "helmet cam" video of the one you've got down there flying over Auckland harbour recently. What a sight and sound.

Steve

 

[spicmart]

Did the Mossie sport a laminar flow wing?

 

[Shortround6]

Did the Mossie sport a laminar flow wing?

No but it's wooden construction allowed for a smoother surface finish than metal planes had. Look down the side of many metal aircraft and the sides dish in a bit between the frames and flush rivets often aren't

An old, well worn Mosquito might be a different story but a new one might have a very smooth (or fair) surface.

 

[davebender]

Dive bombing (70 degree angle) is what made Ju-88 weapons delivery almost as accurate as the Ju-87. Take away dive bombing and you might as well cancel the Ju-88 and produce more He-111s.