Ju88 is Luftwaffe's Mosquito

[davebender]

noone seems to have been sure what role the Me 210/410 was going to carry out

Me-210 had a bomb bay equal in size to 1942 versions of the Mosquito. Me-210 carried slightly more fuel then the Mosquito and it was well protected against ground fire. Me-210 had dive brakes and a proper bomb sight. How could there be any doubt as to the Me-210s design role?

 

[wuzak]

Me-210 had a bomb bay equal in size to 1942 versions of the Mosquito. Me-210 carried slightly more fuel then the Mosquito and it was well protected against ground fire. Me-210 had dive brakes and a proper bomb sight. How could there be any doubt as to the Me-210s design role?

You mean the Mosquito didn't have a "proper bomb sight"?

The Me 210 may have had more fuel, but did that give greater range?

The Me 210's bomb bay may have taken the same load as teh Mosquito's in 1942, but it sure wasn't the same size.

 

[stona]

How could there be any doubt as to the Me-210s design role?

Because I've read the minutes of meetings at the RLM in which it is clear that the intended role of the Me 210/410 changed on an almost monthly basis. Sometimes on nothing more than a whim of the Fuhrer who one day wanted to shoot down RAF bombers and the next wanted to bomb England. The entire "Zerstorer" role came and went too.

The initial pre-war acquisition plan,to be realised by 1942,was for seven or eight heavy fighter wings (of a total of sixteen) to be equipped with the Me 210. No bombers at all.
There were also plans for eight dive bomber wings,initially stocked with Ju 87s which would be replaced with Me 210s as they became available.

The RLM expected the Me 210 to be a direct descendant of the Bf 110. This is why an order for 2000 aircraft was placed before a prototype had even been built. It is often forgotten that the contract for the Me 210 was issued before the war in late 1938. It was a decision that it would come to regret.
The first prototype flew on 2nd September 1939,just in time it was hoped for WW2.

Steve

 

[stona]

Me-210 had a bomb bay equal in size to 1942 versions of the Mosquito.

Well the Me 410's bomb bay was too small for a standard German SC 1000 bomb!
In mid 1943 the Luftwaffe was looking into fitting such a bomb with reduced fins ( specifically for the Me 410)
They also had problems fitting the Lotfe bomb sight. The fitting required modifying the seat,removing the auto pilot and repositioning the rudder pedals.
This does not sound like Germany's Mosquito to me.

Steve

 

[davebender]

1,000 kg is a very large bomb. 1942 versions of the Mosquito, B-25, Ju-88 and probably a dozen other medium / light bombers couldn't fit such a weapon in the bomb bay either.

 

[stona]

The 1942 version could carry four 500 lb bombs but it didn't need a huge modification to enable a 4000lb cookie to be carried. A 4000lb cookie is a large device.
Put 4000lbs of ordnance on an Me 210 and it won't get off the ground. It could lift just over a quarter of that.
The comparison between the two is pointless.
The Mosquito was a much better and more versatile aircraft.
Steve

 

[wuzak]

1,000 kg is a very large bomb. 1942 versions of the Mosquito, B-25, Ju-88 and probably a dozen other medium / light bombers couldn't fit such a weapon in the bomb bay either.

The Mosquito's bomb bay didn't grow in length or width, the only thing that changed was the bulged bomb bay doors, to fit the 4000lb HC and MC bombs.

The only British general purpose bomb of similar size was the 1900lb GP bomb, which could fit comfortably inside the Mosquito's bomb bay for length and width - the only question is depth to the bomb bay doors - the 1900 GP bomb was only 1" large in diameter than the 1000lb MC bomb, 2 of which the Mosquito could carry.

The only thing the Mosquito needed modified to carry an SC 1000 would be the bomb bay doors - the bulged version would comfortably fit the SC 1000.

 

[stona]

Whilst we're on 1942,it was in March 1942 that Jeschonnek gave his opinion of the Me 210.

"This aircraft is a danger to its crews."

You won't find any comments like that about the Mosquito.

As for bomb bays,an SC 500 just fitted in the Me 410 bomb bay. There was a 10cm gap between bomb and bomb bay doors.

Steve

 

[davebender]

What's wrong with that?

Bridges and bunkers are typical targets for light bombers. Bombs of 250 to 500 kg are the right size weapons.

 

[Siegfried]

Polish POWs were working in the German aircraft industry from 1939-40 on. It only got worse as French, Dutch, Belgian, and later Soviet POWS showed up and culminated in Jewish and concentration camp labor predominating in 1944.


They weren't AFAIK. The Ju88 bombed horizontally only at that point.

The Ju 88 had dive Brakes and these were in use during both the BoB and the Battle of France for 45 degree and even 60 degree attacks. The later addition of the BZA computer with the Stuvi 5B dive bombing sight allowed accurate 22 degree slide bombing attacks and the removal of the dive brakes.

British POW were never used in munitions production that i know of as that was against the Geneva and Hague conventions which the Germans strictly complied with. Apart from officers who were exempt British POW were used in forestry and agriculture. The conventions recognised that a POW must atleast pay for his upkeep or else combatants might see them as a burden and be disinclined to invest in their wellbeing.

Junkers had almost zero use of impressed labour. The first use of forced labour in aviation was at Heinkel Rostok which used labour from a nearby concentration camp as a result of production problems caused by cancellation of Me 210 program which was to replace He 111 production and difficulties in retooling for Ju 88 production which had to replace Me 210 production. The disruption meant manufacture was labour intensive rather than based on efficient use of tooling in the form of presses and jigs. At the time a concentration camp was a small affair, about 5000 in all of Germany, where politically difficult people were sent for a few months or years and were expected to work under strict discipline. The system grew from there.

The Soviets had refused to signe the Geneva conventions or to renew The earlier Hague conventions which the Tsar had signed. As a result their POW could be used in munitions production in fact they often manned FLAK crews. A Soviet POW was punished severely for allowing themselves to be captured. Execution or years in a concentration camp was normal.

 

[nuuumannn]

The first use of forced labour in aviation was at Heinkel Rostok which used labour from a nearby concentration camp

Heinkel's plant near Oranienburg used forced labour from Sachsenhausen, which is on the outskirts of Oranienburg. Sachsenhausen was the Nazi party's 'model' camp, which they showed to the world how nice they were to their political prisoners during the 1936 Berlin Olympics. You can still visit the Sachsenhousen site, which is a state memorial... thread drift...

Just as an aside, it is worth noting that at no time, apart from the Ar 234 - which, although it was very quick, it was not nor could it have been as versatile in its applications as the Mosquito was - did the Luftwaffe consider building an aircraft to the high speed unarmed bomber concept. This was something that the British had considered before Geoffrey de Havilland wrote his letter to Wilfred Freeman in September 1939 outlining the Mossie concept.

Two years earlier George Volkert of Handley Page wrote a paper extolling the virtues of such a thing and came up with a concept for such an aeroplane, using P13/36 - the specification that produced the Avro Manchester and Volkert's own HP.56 that was never built, but was modified to became the HP.57 Halifax - as a benchmark, but without defensive armament of powered turrets in the nose and tail. Volkert's high speed twin engined bomber was very streamlined and had nose glasing similar to the He 111. This paper put a cat among the pigeons in the Air Ministry and set tongues wagging and gained much favourable comment, even from Bomber Command C-in-C Edgar Ludlow Hewitt, although several heads were opposed to the idea of a bomber with no guns. Even the Mosquito was to be initially built in two versions, an unarmed concept aircraft and a gun turret equipped fast bomber before it was going to be approved. Thanks largely to Freeman and the further decision to build the type as a night fighter and a photo reconnaissance aircraft, the high speed unarmed prototype was the only one completed.

The problem was that when first proposed by GDH, the DH.98 was not emphasised as being a multi role type, just a high speed unarmed bomber; by contrast Blackburn Aircraft had successfully gained a production contract for its unarmed B.28 bomber reconnaissance project, which was to have performance similar to the Mossie, though this is doubtful as it was a bit of a pig in appearance - only a mock up was built.

 

[wuzak]

Volkert's unarmed P.13/36 was to be powered by two Vultures, have a maximum speed of 380mph and maximum bomb load of 8000lb. Could have been quite useful!

 

[stona]

What's wrong with that?

Bridges and bunkers are typical targets for light bombers. Bombs of 250 to 500 kg are the right size weapons.

There's nothing wrong with that but its not a valid comparison with the sort of load carried by the Mosquito.

Steve

 

[riacrato]

The 1942 version could carry four 500 lb bombs but it didn't need a huge modification to enable a 4000lb cookie to be carried. A 4000lb cookie is a large device.
Put 4000lbs of ordnance on an Me 210 and it won't get off the ground. It could lift just over a quarter of that.
The comparison between the two is pointless.
The Mosquito was a much better and more versatile aircraft.
Steve

Me 210´s (with long cell, not sure about the old ones) could carry 2x500kg for a total of 1,000 kg (2,204 lb). Not quite the Mosquito load, but certainly enough to be very useful and destructive. It's not always about the fastest or best armed, but about what aircraft is useful in its specific role and the later 210s or 410s were certainly up to the task of a fast bomber, interdiction aircraft.

Just as an aside, it is worth noting that at no time, apart from the Ar 234 - which, although it was very quick, it was not nor could it have been as versatile in its applications as the Mosquito was - did the Luftwaffe consider building an aircraft to the high speed unarmed bomber concept. This was something that the British had considered before Geoffrey de Havilland wrote his letter to Wilfred Freeman in September 1939 outlining the Mossie concept.

How so? I can't think of a Mosquito-role the Ar 234 could not have been adapted for. That some of those never came to be is more a result of the war ending and the limited number produced being used for what they were best suited for: Recon or fast bomber attacks.

The original Ju 88 was to have only marginal defensive armament, relying almost entirely on speed for defense. So yes, the concept was considered. It was only the RLMs insistance that led to the Ju 88 becoming a 'medium' bomber. It is a testimony to the sound design that they managed to make it such a good aircraft besides the changing requirements.

 

[davebender]

Pathfinder aircraft have a mission entirely different from normal light bombers. A Mosquito carrying a 4,000 lb cookie or target indicators @ 20,000+ feet would be worthless for bombing bridges and bunkers.

The Luftwaffe employed pathfinder aircraft too as early as 1940. I believe they used Ju-88s and He-111s with specially trained aircrew.

 

[davebender]

original Ju 88 was to have only marginal defensive armament, relying almost entirely on speed for defense

Might have worked if RLM hadn't pulled the plug on the DB603 engine program during 1937. A Ju-88A powered by DB603 engines would be tough to catch with fighter aircraft in service during 1941.

 

[nuuumannn]

How so? I can't think of a Mosquito-role the Ar 234 could not have been adapted for.

High speed transport - no room for passengers in the Ar 234, sorry, anti-shipping strike and torpedo bomber - not adviseable particularly releasing a torpedo at the speeds a jet travels at, aircraft carrier based naval versions - especially difficult since Germany had no carriers in service. There's a few so far. The Ar 234 didn't have an internal bomb bay; the Mossie could carry a heavier load than the German jet.

only marginal defensive armament

...not none at all, however. Apart from the Ar 234, the Germans did not dispense with defensive armament altogether in any of their bombers. The Mossie was specifically designed as a high speed unarmed bomber built with non strategic materials; as posted earlier, the Ju 88 was not.

 

[stona]

Pathfinder aircraft have a mission entirely different from normal light bombers. A Mosquito carrying a 4,000 lb cookie or target indicators @ 20,000+ feet would be worthless for bombing bridges and bunkers.

Or prison walls?

Steve

 

[davebender]

1939 Germany was the world's largest aluminum producer. It makes sense for WWII Germany to build aircraft of aluminum.

Britain and the Soviet Union did not produce much aluminum at the start of WWII. That's why they used other materials such as wood and fabric.

If Germany had been short of aluminum the Ju-88 probably would have been built out of fabric covered steel tube in a manner similiar to the Hurricane fighter aircraft or wood in a manner similiar to the Mosquito.

 

[davebender]

I doubt the RAF dropped target indicators and/or a 4,000 lb cookie when attacking a police station.